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RE: Atheism, A Grim Position?
January 6, 2015 at 8:38 pm
I don't know about the rest of you, but I get my fill of naked assertions around the holidays. More gym time. Grrrrr.
It's not like any theist yet had anything concrete to bring to the table. Just a lot of what-ifs/should-bes and chin scratching.
Where oh where is this god fella they keep going on about? Quite an elusive sum bitch...
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RE: Atheism, A Grim Position?
January 6, 2015 at 10:07 pm
Well, it's nice to see that the non-Abrahamic theists are hauling their fair share of horseshit. I don't like to see the followers of the big three get too strenuously overworked -- that workload should be portioned out.
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RE: Atheism, A Grim Position?
January 6, 2015 at 10:09 pm
(January 6, 2015 at 10:07 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Well, it's nice to see that the non-Abrahamic theists are hauling their fair share of horseshit. I don't like to see the followers of the big three get too strenuously overworked -- that workload should be portioned out.
Don't you mean Hindshint?
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
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RE: Atheism, A Grim Position?
January 6, 2015 at 10:39 pm
(January 5, 2015 at 8:07 pm)*steve* Wrote: As I understand atheism, these would be a few of its tenets:
Let me just stop you there…
Atheism HAS no tenets.
It's a purely descriptive term: it describes the absence of a belief in god(s). That's all.
There are no rules to follow, no membership requirements as there's nothing to be a member OF.
Atheism is not a "belief system" or even a "belief". It's the absence of a specific belief. It's not athe-ism. It's a-theism. No theism. That's all.
An atheist can believe or disbelieve anything (s)he likes above and beyond this.
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RE: Atheism, A Grim Position?
January 6, 2015 at 10:43 pm
Reported ^^ to the International Atheist Alliance for censure and possible dismemberment.
We have but one rule. Babies -- cook 'm slow, cook 'm low, but just cook 'm.
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RE: Atheism, A Grim Position?
January 20, 2015 at 2:43 pm
(This post was last modified: January 20, 2015 at 2:44 pm by Pizza.)
(January 5, 2015 at 8:07 pm)*steve* Wrote: Hello, I'm new to the forum. Full disclosure: I'm currently a non-traditional theist. However, I have considered atheism a few times but it seems to be such a grim position. Let me explain. No emotions like a feeling of grimness are not intrinsic to the object but are a state of your mind. For example some people look at a desert and see despair while others see inspirationally natural beauty. Or like how say Christian fundamentalists can think their worldview inspirational while atheists can see it as horrifying.
Quote:As I understand atheism, these would be a few of its tenets:
No tenets.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism
"a disbelief in the existence of deity"
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/def...sh/atheism
"Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods."
: a feeling that you do not or cannot believe or accept that something is true or real"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionar...1421778317
Quote:There is no ultimate meaning. Therefore, all lives and events are ultimately meaningless.
There is no ultimate basis for value. Therefore any moral position is ultimately arbitrary and logically, equally defensible. This means that things like genocide, pedophilia, torture, etc. are equally defensible to any other moral position.
There is no ultimate intentionality associated with/in reality. Therefore, all events, actions, thoughts and behaviors are determined by chance and necessity. Thus, an individual's thoughts and actions are determined solely by prior causal events and chance.
What does "ultimate meaning" mean? I've never heard anyone give a clear definition of what it is without it ending being something boring and trivial, so why care about " ultimate meaning?" Ditto for "ultimate basis/grounding/whatever for morality." If it turns out nothing has ultimate meaning whatever that is then it doesn't ultimately matter that nothing ultimately matters. So we all go about our day as normal. I have to ask ultimately arbitrary compared to what? The ultimately arbitrary actions of a gawd?
Quote:At least for me, if I take these atheist positions to their logical conclusion this all seems psychologically pretty grim.
I'd be interested in comments why this is not necessarily the case.
Again I can't stress this enough, psychological grimness is in your head not the world.
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot
We are the United States of Amnesia, we learn nothing because we remember nothing. - Gore Vidal
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RE: Atheism, A Grim Position?
January 20, 2015 at 3:29 pm
Hey Pizz-atheist! 13 posts since 2011, huh?What's that, an average of one post every 4 months? Well, welcome back and nice to meet you!
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: Atheism, A Grim Position?
January 20, 2015 at 3:45 pm
(This post was last modified: January 20, 2015 at 3:50 pm by Regina.)
I don't know how far this has gone off topic since the initial post but I wanted to share my thoughts, on that.
I don't think atheism is grim at all. I'm no expert on science so I can't elaborate on why I feel this way, but for me the science of the universe and the real origin of life and humanity only makes me feel more connected to the Earth and universe. Religion would rather have it that we're this special species who were designed seperately from everything else. I also find the threat of Hell far more grim than the threat of non-existence after death.
Also I don't understand this view religious people have of atheists being "moral deviants" who believe that atheism gives them carte blanche to commit crime. Actually it's the opposite in my opinion. As an atheist, the one life I have is short, I don't want to spend it in jail thanks. I also know there's no post-death reward in crashing planes into buildings.
As Richard Dawkins pointed out, religion also proposes that you be moral purely for the sake of pleasing God and getting into heaven. That's a disingenuous faux-morality that gives me little hope about humanity tbh, with religious people you're not sure whether it's out of genuine kindness or "I don't want to go to Hell".
"Adulthood is like looking both ways before you cross the road, and then getting hit by an airplane" - sarcasm_only
"Ironically like the nativist far-Right, which despises multiculturalism, but benefits from its ideas of difference to scapegoat the other and to promote its own white identity politics; these postmodernists, leftists, feminists and liberals also use multiculturalism, to side with the oppressor, by demanding respect and tolerance for oppression characterised as 'difference', no matter how intolerable." - Maryam Namazie
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RE: Atheism, A Grim Position?
January 21, 2015 at 2:48 am
(This post was last modified: January 21, 2015 at 2:55 am by Pizza.)
(January 20, 2015 at 3:29 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Hey Pizz-atheist! 13 posts since 2011, huh?What's that, an average of one post every 4 months? Well, welcome back and nice to meet you! More like zero posts for three years. 
(January 20, 2015 at 3:45 pm)NuclearJaguar Wrote: As Richard Dawkins pointed out, religion also proposes that you be moral purely for the sake of pleasing God and getting into heaven. That's a disingenuous faux-morality that gives me little hope about humanity tbh, with religious people you're not sure whether it's out of genuine kindness or "I don't want to go to Hell". That's the odd thing about religious ethics, they hate ethical egoism but their normative theory ultimately collapses into ethical egoism.
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot
We are the United States of Amnesia, we learn nothing because we remember nothing. - Gore Vidal
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RE: Atheism, A Grim Position?
January 24, 2015 at 2:01 am
(This post was last modified: January 24, 2015 at 2:05 am by wiploc.)
(January 5, 2015 at 8:07 pm)*steve* Wrote: As I understand atheism, these would be a few of its tenets:
Atheism doesn't have tenets. Atheism is not believing in gods. That's all there is to it. You can find atheists on all sides of every one of your "tenets."
Quote:There is no ultimate meaning. Therefore, all lives and events are ultimately meaningless.
I don't know of any atheists who believe that. I think it's just a lie Christians tell about us.
Quote:There is no ultimate basis for value. Therefore any moral position is ultimately arbitrary and logically, equally defensible. This means that things like genocide, pedophilia, torture, etc. are equally defensible to any other moral position.
And yet, you don't find atheists saying that. It's just a thing theists say about us. Theists who don't care about truth, that is. Theists who cared about truth would ask an atheist before offering an opinion about what atheists think.*
In the real world, atheists condemn immorality as much as theists do. And they seem to be much better at obeying the law. And if you do disagree with one on a moral question, the atheist will be easier to reason with, because the atheist won't all the time be insisting that something is true because an invisible eccentric says it's true.
*Edited to add: Let me be clear that I'm not suggesting that you are one who doesn't care about truth. You aren't making claims about what we believe without asking. You are here for the purpose of asking what we think.
Quote:There is no ultimate intentionality associated with/in reality. Therefore, all events, actions, thoughts and behaviors are determined by chance and necessity. Thus, an individual's thoughts and actions are determined solely by prior causal events and chance.
At last you've got something that may not be based entirely on smoke and mirrors. That is, I suspect that, on average, more atheists than theists take the position that you have described.
But that doesn't make it a tenet of atheism. I believe in free will myself.
Quote:At least for me, if I take these atheist positions to their logical conclusion this all seems psychologically pretty grim.
They aren't atheist positions. And they aren't anywhere close to as grim as the Christian position on Hellfire. A world with Hellfire is the worst of all possible worlds. No decent person could possibly want a religion with Hellfire to be true.
Quote:I'd be interested in comments why this is not necessarily the case.
You've got 'em. Does it sound to you like I don't have any values?
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