Nonexistance = Hell

[Watson]

Okay, bare with me here. I wasn't sure whether this should go into the Religion forum or the Philosophy forum, so I thought it'd be best to put it here. Seeing as it's dealing with a religious concept such as Hell.

I do believe in Hell, but not exactly the kind of fire and brimstone Hell that some proclaim God will smite you to when you die, if you were bad in life. I believe Hell, liek pretty much anything else real, is a state of mind which one can achieve both before and after death. The only difference between Hell in lfie and Hell in death is that after death, there is no changing it. You chose your fate(as you chose your state of mind), and are stuck with the responsibility of that decision for the rest of your (after)life.

Why do I believe this? Well, personal accountability is the way the world has and always will work, I'd say. You are accountable for no one's actions and decisions but your own, to think otherwise seems foolish. You cannot control what people do, only what they know.(thanks for having that in your sig so long, tackattack!)

I don't necessarilly want to focus on the 'why' God works that way part, so much as the 'how.' I'm sure it will eventually boil down to both, but for now I'd like to pose a question.

Is non-existance a form of Hell?

Think about this for a moment. I hear a lot of atheists say "Well I wasn't aware I didn't exist before I was born, why would I care after I am dead?" Well, how do you know there is no such thing as conscious non-existance? Is it possible to have a conscious awareness of your own non-existance, or no?

Another factor here is that existance, ultimately, is the best and brightest example of free will. So long as you exist, you have the opportunity to change, to learn, to grow and to d owhat you believe is right. So long as you exist, you can change your fate and your circumstances. Even if it's only your perception of said circumstances, you can thoroughly control your own outlook while still existing.

Not so while not exitsing. There is no possible way to change your 'outlook' on non-existance, because you have no outlook. You have no perception! There is nothing which can be changed, nothing which can be viewed differently. Free will is essentially obliteated.

Maybe this would be better for a theism based forum, but...I think it's interesting, nonetheless. What do y'all think, regardless of belief in Hell or not?

[tavarish]

Why do I believe this? Well, personal accountability is the way the world has and always will work, I'd say. You are accountable for no one's actions and decisions but your own, to think otherwise seems foolish. You cannot control what people do, only what they know.(thanks for having that in your sig so long, tackattack!)

Accountability and punishment usually ends when the person is dead in the real world.

Is non-existance a form of Hell?

By your definition of hell, no.

Think about this for a moment. I hear a lot of atheists say "Well I wasn't aware I didn't exist before I was born, why would I care after I am dead?" Well, how do you know there is no such thing as conscious non-existance? Is it possible to have a conscious awareness of your own non-existance, or no?

No. If something has a consciousness, it therefore must exist, as you're applying at least one attribute to it. Something as incredibly complex as self-awareness is the product of chemical reactions in the brain, all of which would cease to function at the time of your death. If you want to argue for an everlasting soul or spirit, go ahead, but the evidence for such a prospect is highly dubious.

Another factor here is that existance, ultimately, is the best and brightest example of free will. So long as you exist, you have the opportunity to change, to learn, to grow and to d owhat you believe is right. So long as you exist, you can change your fate and your circumstances. Even if it's only your perception of said circumstances, you can thoroughly control your own outlook while still existing.

Free will is a vague term, as we can't change much of the universe around us and ourselves. Free will applies only to our actions, and is the product of a conscious mind, not solely of existence. An apple exists, but does it exhibit the same free will as you contend?

Not so while not exitsing. There is no possible way to change your 'outlook' on non-existance, because you have no outlook. You have no perception! There is nothing which can be changed, nothing which can be viewed differently. Free will is essentially obliteated.

You're reading too far into this. Non-existence is just that. You are not. You cannot have a perception, since there is no "you", much less any methods to perceive anything. Free will is entirely irrelevant to this conversation.

Maybe this would be better for a theism based forum, but...I think it's interesting, nonetheless. What do y'all think, regardless of belief in Hell or not?

I think the question wasn't worded very well. It's like saying "what does the air on the moon smell like?".

[tackattack]

Your welcome btw.

I think the only way we can change our circumstances is due to free will and the input of knew information from others. I would surmise being the only person alive and never knowing other people existed, it would be nearly impossible to change your circumstances other than in a material way. Maybe self-discovery has some influence but I wouldn't wager it is much because I don't feel we can think outside of who we are. We can discover more about ourselves but deeply delving into the self expands the view not changes the direction usually, IMO. I think this is relevant, so bear with me. Let's assume that at least half of the stories of people clinically being dead, but floating over their body and seeing the doctors have some basis in a percetion they had and not an outright lie. Let's assume that the mind when alone and to it's elements can warp the perception of time (such as in dreams and memories). Now let's say that after clinical death the brain is still active for 5 seconds. That 5 seconds could seem like 5 million years or an eternity if you're locked within your mind. There is no new discoveries mentally and no extraneous input to your senses. Then in fact we could very well make our own heaven or hell for those 5 seconds after death, and it could seem to subjectively like eternity.

[Laurens]

I would say non-existence is nothing like hell. You say hell is a state of mind you can achieve before or after death, the problem here is that if you do not exsist there are no states of mind.

Normally hell is defined as some kind of suffering, a punnishment. Non exsistence means there is nothing, no punnishment, no suffering, no experience of anything.

[LEDO]

Man created marriage. We don't need hell.

[downbeatplumb]

Man created marriage. We don't need hell.

Having trouble Ledo?

[Watson]

I think the funniest part about LEDO's post is how many people gave kudos. xD

I'm still solidifying my thoughts on this subject, by the way, so I'll get back to this post some time later. But thanks, Tavarish, Tackattack, and Laurens for helping with some of the quirks to this idea.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Is non-existence a form of Hell?

NO

Hell is an experience. Non existence is not.

Dying is an experience for many. Being dead isn't anything. Is a dreamless sleep unpleasant in any way?


I saw this on a tomb in Pompeii : "I was not. I was. I am not. I don't care".That will do me as an epitaph.

[Minimalist]

Hey, Wats...it's YOUR invention. You can make it whatever you want it to be.

You can make it High Tea and crumpets with the Queen for eternity if you like and it will be no more real than what ever any other xtian comes up with.

It's your fantasy. Enjoy yourself.

[theblindferrengi]

Exactly Padriac.

I like to think of hell as an experience inside of life, where there are no consequences for any of your actions both good and bad. When you do good then you get nopthing from it, when you do bad you dont get caught. This would appear to be fun, but it gets old, as you get credit for nothing.