The Reasons why "Just Following Jesus" Doesn't work

[Chad32]

The necessity of social creatures to be able to function as a group is what sets up moral law. If it was objective, this would be the same for all groups, but it commonly breaks down when it comes to outside groups. Like when the isrealites are told they're not to enslave their own people (though with a loophole in place), yet slavery of neighboring tribes is ok.

Like I said. We were created to worship him. To hell with those who don't.

Since I was born in a country where we are expected to have inalienable rights, and our leaders are supposed to be public servants instead of unquestioned overlords, I really don't see the appeal to your dictator of a god. Maybe if i was born in Korea, or some theocratic country, I would be more inclined to worship him. Why would anyone want to worship a god like Yahweh? Why would we not rebel against someone who takes mild disobedience so harshly? Satan wouldn't have to lie to get people to stop following him. Just allow people to take the bible at face value without presupposing that Yahweh is the ultimate good.

Loving god more than your fellow man has caused people to commit atrocities against their kind. even their own family. Why should I love a god that refuses to show himself more than my own family?

[Cato]

Yes, God created the devil but He didn't create Him to disobey just like He didn't create us to disobey.

This only means that God's creative ability is flawed or he doesn't know everything. Which is it?

[robvalue]

Objective morality doesn't make any sense. It doesn't exist. For one, if God "made morality" then it is subjective to God. I don't care about god's opinion, especially when I don't even believe there is such a thing. Why would I take people's word about what a magic being thinks over actually looking after those around me as best I can? I don't need old books to tell me how to be nice to people. My evidence that I'm doing a good job is simply the feedback I get that I'm a nice and good person, and that I've seen the positive results of my actions throughout my life. If you think I'd be doing a better job by condoning rape, slavery or genocide then you'd be sorely wrong.

My morality is based on maximising the wellbeing of life as much as I can, and minimising harm. That's it, plain and simple. Any other definition of morality I have no interest in. I couldn't care less what "makes God happy", whether or not he exists. He should be able to take care of himself. If he doesn't like me being nice to people, he's a nob.

[Rekeisha]

@chad the Moral law is an absolute and can't be constructed by a society. Every human being realizes that something is wrong, that the world isn't perfect, it is just that everyone has a different idea on how to solve it. People knows that cowards, liars, thieves and murders do not live as they should. Yet humans try to cover up our own sin by justification to make it seem as though they do not have these characteristics. They try to dress it up to reason it away. This is evidence for the moral law.

I worship God because He has always done good to me. Even before I could or would read the Bible what he spoke to me is proved by the Bible. He called out to me when I wasn't looking for Him. He sought me in my ignorance and laid down his life for me in my disobedience. Even when I lived counter to His ways He had great patience with me and still lead and blessed me. He has been with me through some of the hardest times of my life and I have come out stronger. He has taken me places that I never thought I would ever go. My God is good and I have a very real and personal relationship with Him. So when you call Him a dictator and a murderer I know you are lying because it is easier to defame the name of God then to humble yourself and see that you are sinful.

Your sin is not mild you are just blind to it. You have lived in it for so long that you are able to justify it away.
You also come to the bible with a presupposition because you have already stated that you are a God hatter so I will have a difficult time thinking that you would come to it objectively. Actually everyone comes with some kind of presupposition when they are reading or evaluating anything. That is why God has to give us a new heart and mind.

Did you create yourself? Did you choose to come into existence? When was the last time you crated something from nothing? Do you make the earth move around the sun? When was the last time you created consciousness? When was the last time you saw the wind? When was the last time you held your thoughts or love? Not everything that is real is physical. It is short sighted to believe that everything that is worth considering exist like we do.

@Cato neither

@Rob everything is subjective to God but when I speak of objective I mean that which was not created by humans but affects human behavior.
You say that you are against genocide so do you accept abortion? Don't say that they aren't people because that is what they said about the slaves in America. The truth is human beings create human beings we don't just conceive some alien thing that is alive that then turns into a human at a certain point in it's gestation because society says it is so. Worldwide since 1980 1,339,783,062 children have been murdered and counting. That is a silent genocide . Do you accept porn in your country? It causes people to see human as objects and it is harder to get off of than heroin. These to practices harm any society. Look at India or china they do not have enough women because of selective abortion which will kill there country and also causes more rape.

Everyone knows that there is something wrong with people but most people try to solve it without the wisdom and knowledge of God, the one who created everything.

[robvalue]

Well I'm not talking to God, I'm talking to you. If God wants to come see me, he is welcome. What we are doing is discussing morality. If God has "given" me morality, clearly he has given me a different set than he gave you.

I think abortion and porn are fine yes, when proper care and attention are paid.

I think abortion should be a last resort, and not used as contraception. But the world is vastly overpopulated, and it's stupid to have a child for the sake of it when there isn't a family ready who want it and can support it. I understand arguments against it and it's not a clean cut issue. Unfortunately for you, the bible condones abortion and also straightforward genocide; city by city. I can provide verses if need be. So it's not a good point of comparison. Clearly you are not getting your morality from where you think you are.

I think people have the right to do what they want with their bodies, and if they want to be paid to show them off on camera then that is up to them. As long as it's safe and there is no coercion I don't see the problem. I'm all for making it safer, I'm not for telling women (or men) what they can't do. More addictive than heroin? That's ridiculous. Sadly not a good point to pick since your bible treats people literally as property and condones actual rape. So again, the bible does not back you up in what you say. I wouldn't have anything to do with porn that I had reason to believe involved any kind of coercion or abuse.

Here's some examples of my morality, if you are interested:

I'm vegan, and I try and buy products which are not tested on animals. In this way, I try and reduce the suffering my existence causes on animals worldwide. I try and do my bit to help people and animals where I can, donate to charities, do volunteer work for good causes, and I came to this forum partly to support fellow atheists who are in countries less accepting of it than mine. I try and be nice to everyone, and to make the world a better place in whatever little way I can. I try and avoid hurting anyone whenever possible, and to look after the environment.

I would not learn any of this from the bible. All it represents is what passed for morality 2000 years ago and it has no relevance to society today.

[Chad32]

@chad the Moral law is an absolute and can't be constructed by a society. Every human being realizes that something is wrong, that the world isn't perfect, it is just that everyone has a different idea on how to solve it. People knows that cowards, liars, thieves and murders do not live as they should. Yet humans try to cover up our own sin by justification to make it seem as though they do not have these characteristics. They try to dress it up to reason it away. This is evidence for the moral law.

I worship God because He has always done good to me. Even before I could or would read the Bible what he spoke to me is proved by the Bible.  He called out to me when I wasn't looking for Him. He sought me in my ignorance and laid down his life for me in my disobedience. Even when I lived counter to His ways He had great patience with me and still lead and blessed me. He has been with me through some of the hardest times of my life and I have come out stronger. He has taken me places that I never thought I would ever go. My God is good and I have a very real and personal relationship with Him. So when you call Him a dictator and a murderer I know you are lying because it is easier to defame the name of God then to humble yourself and see that you are sinful.

Your sin is not mild you are just blind to it. You have lived in it for so long that you are able to justify it away.
You also come to the bible with a presupposition because you have already stated that you are a God hatter so I will have a difficult time thinking that you would come to it objectively. Actually everyone comes with some kind of presupposition when they are reading or evaluating anything. That is why God has to give us a new heart and mind.

Did you create yourself? Did you choose to come into existence? When was the last time you crated something from nothing? Do you make the earth move around the sun? When was the last time you created consciousness? When was the last time you saw the wind? When was the last time you held your thoughts or love? Not everything that is real is physical. It is short sighted to believe that everything that is worth considering exist like we do.

Yes, societies do create morals, because that's the only way societies can run. Unfortunately the bigger a society is, the more chance there is that different "in groups" will form within that society. Especially between those who have power, and those who don't. If those with power aren't kept in check by the people at large, they become corrupt until an inevitable rebellion. This happens throughout history. Why should any god feel they would be the exception to this universal rule? Even your god acts tribally. Thou shalt not kill or steal. Now go to this neighboring land I picked, kill everyone in it, and steal their stuff. These two basic rules are not objective or universal. They end at the border between the "in group", and the "out group". I've heard people say god gave people things, and he can take them away, but where is it culturally acceptable for someone to take back something that's been given? If I buy a car, and give it to you for a special occasion, do I have the right to come back later and take it away? Many would presumably say no.

The bible is a claim. It isn't proof of anything. For every prophesy people have said came true, there are others that haven't. Even the ones that came true are often vague, giving no specific date or anything. Am I lying by calling him a dictator? What's the difference between him and some Human calling the shots with no checks or balances? If anything I'd say he's worse than a dictator, because at least I could escape Kim Jong Un by dying.

If god was a real person, I would have to hate him. I seriously doubt he could justify the kinds of things he supposedly does. I don't hate his character for no reason, though. It is a seriously demented god the book portrays, and I just could not in good conscience accept the things attributed to him.

My parents created me. I didn't create something from nothing either. There's never been a time in the universe when there was absolutely nothing, and no way to tell what may have existed before the big bang. I can create consciousness by getting someone pregnant. It's not hard. I can feel the wind. I don't know what you mean by holding thoughts or love, but we have machines that can detect emotional impulses. We have yet to detect any gods, or other supernatural forces. one thing we have done is find natural cases for everything we used to attribute to gods. How many times can someone say that something happens because of god, then we prove it naturally, before you start to doubt the existence of gods?[/quote]

[IATIA]

... Moral law is an absolute and can't be constructed by a society.

Uuuuh ... NO! What is your source for that tidbit?

[robvalue]

The thing is, religious people so often proclaim this "absolute moral law". Yet in my experience, they disagree way more with each other than your average atheist disagrees with another atheist. What's up with that? Either there is no moral law, or everyone is terrible at knowing what it is. And atheists are faced with billions of theists all claiming to have the "correct" version of moral law, while all saying different things. Can you see how this is confusing for us?

I'll tell you what's going on, in my opinion and understanding. Listen up ya'll.

Our process of natural selection has favoured those who cooperate. Certain methods of cooperation are very effective. It's not surprising, therefor, that most of us have a big overlap in what we consider "a good idea" and "a bad idea". For example, not smashing each others' brains in is generally "a good idea" from a cooperative point of view.

This is a pretty simple explanation for the overlap. Religion instead wants to go "Wow look, that's amazing, it must be magic!" No need for magic. The scientific explanations are more than adequate; and you'd expect the variation we see. According to religion, there should be far less variation than we actually see. Of course, then come the excuses for why God can't even properly apply his own moral law: devil, man, dark forces, evil...

[Wyrd of Gawd]

---

@chad the Moral law is an absolute and can't be constructed by a society. Every human being realizes that something is wrong, that the world isn't perfect, it is just that everyone has a different idea on how to solve it. People knows that cowards, liars, thieves and murders do not live as they should. Yet humans try to cover up our own sin by justification to make it seem as though they do not have these characteristics. They try to dress it up to reason it away. This is evidence for the moral law.

---

I worship God because He has always done good to me. Even before I could or would read the Bible what he spoke to me is proved by the Bible.  He called out to me when I wasn't looking for Him. He sought me in my ignorance and laid down his life for me in my disobedience. Even when I lived counter to His ways He had great patience with me and still lead and blessed me. He has been with me through some of the hardest times of my life and I have come out stronger. He has taken me places that I never thought I would ever go. My God is good and I have a very real and personal relationship with Him. So when you call Him a dictator and a murderer I know you are lying because it is easier to defame the name of God then to humble yourself and see that you are sinful.

---

Your sin is not mild you are just blind to it. You have lived in it for so long that you are able to justify it away.
You also come to the bible with a presupposition because you have already stated that you are a God hatter so I will have a difficult time thinking that you would come to it objectively. Actually everyone comes with some kind of presupposition when they are reading or evaluating anything. That is why God has to give us a new heart and mind.

Did you create yourself? Did you choose to come into existence? When was the last time you crated something from nothing? Do you make the earth move around the sun? When was the last time you created consciousness? When was the last time you saw the wind? When was the last time you held your thoughts or love? Not everything that is real is physical. It is short sighted to believe that everything that is worth considering exist like we do.

@Cato neither

@Rob everything is subjective to God but when I speak of objective I mean that which was not created by humans but affects human behavior.
You say that you are against genocide so do you accept abortion? Don't say that they aren't people because that is what they said about the slaves in America. The truth is human beings create human beings we don't just conceive some alien thing that is alive that then turns into a human at a certain point in it's gestation because society says it is so. Worldwide since 1980 1,339,783,062 children have been murdered and counting. That is a silent genocide . Do you  accept porn in your country? It causes people to see human as objects and it is harder to get off of than heroin. These to practices harm any society. Look at India or china they do not have enough women because of selective abortion which will kill there country and also causes more rape.

Everyone knows that there is something wrong with people but most people try to solve it without the wisdom and knowledge of God, the one who created everything.

---

How do you know that some other ethnocentric deity wasn't good to you instead of the ethnocentric Middle Eastern Jewish deity of the Bible?  After all, according to the biblical fairy tale that deity only cares about Jews.  So unless a person is Jewish chances are he isn't on that deity's "like" list.

[Rekeisha]

I am not going to get to everything because this would be too long of a post.

@Rob we may disagree on how to go about defining what right and wrong looks like but we all agree there is a right and a wrong. We all agree murder is wrong, we agree lying is wrong, abusing people is wrong. The fact that we who have a different system of beliefs taught to us by the societies we live in and our views of God does not change the fact that we agree with these moral absolutes.

Prov 12:10 The righteous care for the needs of their animals, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel.
Don't think this is a praise to you because you are attempting to care for animals. See you care more for things that are finite being but you happily agree with the murder of the weakest of humans. You blindly say that the objectification of human beings which leads to child molestation, rape, oppression where the viewer and the one viewed are destroyed in the process is just fine.

Also your so called natural selection was acted out by Hitler who thought that the Aryan were the pinnacle of the human race and he put his mind to make it so. Everyone says what he did was evil. Not just bad but evil.

@chad I said that societies did create the moral law which is defined as a general rule of right living; especially : such a rule or group of rules conceived as universal and unchanging and as having the sanction of God's will, of conscience, of man's moral nature, or of natural justice as revealed to human reason <the basic protection of rights is the moral law based on man's dignity. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moral%20law
The fact that we all have morals shows that there is something in us that says life should be organized in a certain way.
Also if you are honest with yourself you will realize that you don't create life because you only have half the DNA for the child also you didn't even choose your DNA. You didn't say today I will be or today I will make a child. You can't control anything outside of yourself, if you can even do that, and you don't even understand all of your brain but you claim there is no God.

@wyrd you err because you don't know the scripture. Look at Acts 10. Also God has told me things about Himself before I read them in the Bible and has behaved as He says He would in the Bible.