Worried there might be an afterlife

[Razzle]

As for the comforting part, well... did you know that children become self-aware only at the age of two? Consciousness is a product of a working brain. Once the brain generating it is damaged or dead, the consciousness ends. Think about people who have amnesia. Memories are what makes us who we are, among other things. After we lose them, we become someone else. Or take lobotomy, for example.

I have long been interested in neurology and have thought long and hard about consciousness, and as far as I can tell, the only thing we can identify is coherent thought and the ability to lay down events as memories and recall them later. You could have consciousness without coherence or memory, and vice versa, and it seems people are just conflating them when they say any studies have learned anything about consciousness. The fact that we can't remember being asleep, or remember being a baby, doesn't mean there is no consciousness during those times, it just means we have no memory of anything, for what could be any one of a number of reasons.

[Alex K]

As for the comforting part, well... did you know that children become self-aware only at the age of two? Consciousness is a product of a working brain. Once the brain generating it is damaged or dead, the consciousness ends. Think about people who have amnesia. Memories are what makes us who we are, among other things. After we lose them, we become someone else. Or take lobotomy, for example.

I have long been interested in neurology and have thought long and hard about consciousness, and as far as I can tell, the only thing we can identify is coherent thought and the ability to lay down events as memories and recall them later. You could have consciousness without coherence or memory, and vice versa, and it seems people are just conflating them when they say any studies have learned anything about consciousness. The fact that we can't remember being asleep, or remember being a baby, doesn't mean there is no consciousness during those times, it just means we have no memory of anything, for what could be any one of a number of reasons.

But it's not on/off, it's also that the quality of consciousness changes radically when you manipulate brain chemistry.

[Razzle]

What we do know however, is how easily the human mind can be fooled. We are surrounded by spooky ideas, and the brain is very suggestive. It doesn't take much for people to fill in the gaps and jump to conclusions. There will almost certainly be a natural explanation for every report.

The thing is, even if they thought they heard or saw something, it is impossible that they can accurately know it is a ghost. We have no experience of such thing. How can they possibly say that's what it was? It's jumping straight to an unsupported conclusion based on the kind of things swirling in our subconscious. There's all kinds of explanations as to how the brain can think it has experienced things it hadn't, and even memories can be altered after the fact. People can be as convinced as they like, but it will always be overwhelmingly more likely that they are mistaken than they happened to have the first real encounter ever.

It just seems to be a likely explanation when some of the phenomena in these buildings include, for example, several mentally healthy people seeing a person looking out of a window as they approach the house. The only other explanation for that, which I can think of, is that they're living people from a parallel universe. But you never hear of people seeing people dressed in an unusual way, they're always dressed in clothes from the present or past of a time on this planet. 

---

I have long been interested in neurology and have thought long and hard about consciousness, and as far as I can tell, the only thing we can identify is coherent thought and the ability to lay down events as memories and recall them later. You could have consciousness without coherence or memory, and vice versa, and it seems people are just conflating them when they say any studies have learned anything about consciousness. The fact that we can't remember being asleep, or remember being a baby, doesn't mean there is no consciousness during those times, it just means we have no memory of anything, for what could be any one of a number of reasons.

But it's not on/off, it's also that the quality of consciousness changes radically when you manipulate brain chemistry.

Does the quality of consciousness change, or just the content of consciousness? When I'm half-asleep, or coming round from anaesthetic, I'm less coherent, I'm confused, I'm experiencing very different things than usual, but I see the consciousness itself as being basically an on-off switch. I'm aware of something, therefore I'm conscious. Content is highly variable, but the concept I'm calling consciousness is only ever in an on or off state, at least as I see it.

---

You are not afraid of the conditions you experienced before you were born?
There is every reason to believe that after death, the conscious person that is you reverts to the state it was in before birth.
So there should be no fear of that state either.

That's what I'm hoping for. I have no fear of non-existence. I don't even relate to that fear anymore, it seems strange to me. I'm worried that this might not be the state I go back to.

---

Hey

It's pretty obvious that consciousness is a product of your brain, and your ocd is a product of brain chemistry and wiring. Even if there were an afterlife, which is a silly idea, why would the minutiae of your brain chemistry play a role there?
That being said, please don't kill yourself. There have got to be more effective therapies, and if not now maybe in a few years time.

I guess I was thinking of the possibility that the brain can set in motion consciousness, which is then independent of it in some way (though the content of consciousness - specific experiences - are clearly dependent on the brain while alive). There have been some very strange findings in studies on animals that suggest memories aren't stored in any particular brain structure at all, as if the brain is accessing them from somewhere other than its own tissue. So memories and thoughts from our lives, and perhaps consciousness of them too, could hang around. I know it sounds really bizarre, but consciousness is bizarre, it makes no sense to me that it exists at all, and the phenomena people report are bizarre. I'm trying to piece it all together in a way that fits all of the data I'm working with, and I'm not able to come up any explanation for it all that is not bizarre.

---

Could well be that the one (hypothetical God) who gave you the life may not like that you refuse his gift.

If I gave someone a gift that ended up torturing them, I would not be offended if they got rid of it.

---

Occasionally I wonder what will happen when I die (but not what happens after that). I have no problem with the notion, as some religionists like to put it, that I am "simply a collection of atoms". The reason being, because I am just a collection of atoms. People worry about death but they never ponder about what happened before they were born.

Death is described in detail in the religious texts because it is suppose to give a reason for people to live. Heaven is the 'carrot and stick' religionists use because they love this world, not matter how much they claim otherwise. They want to be listened to, they want to have fame and, most of all, they want money. Religionists want their chosen religion to expand because they want wealth. People pay to see them, they buy their books and they buy the proselytizing materials.

All around us we read stories of deities that do not value human life. If you do end up in hellfire know this: Lots of amazing people will be there. Think about that for a moment. Stephen Hawking, Brian Cox and many other awesome people will be there. Hellfire is not just. I don't want to be in heaven if the likes of Osma Bin-Laden (if Muhammad was right) or Hitler (because Hitler was a Catholic) will be there.

The concept of permanent unconsciousness doesn't frighten me at all, and the notion of hellfire is a lot of silliness to me. The only thing I'm worried might happen after death is that my memories and thoughts continue to play over and over, maybe some aspects of my personality, and that I'll be conscious of that happening, or that I'll be born in another human or even worse, a species that routinely suffers even more.

---

It's amazing how much trouble our inability to imagine nothingness has gotten us into over the centuries isn't it? That indescribable, existential dread of the abyss, the refusal to accept that once we are dead, there is no comforting embrace, no warm reunion with those we have lost.
Is it a particularly pleasant idea? I would say it's neutral at best or worst. After we die, it will be the same as before we were born. Non-existence.
How many of you can remember the world before you were conceived?

That's what I want to be convinced of. I have no fear of a simple abyss. 

[dyresand]

Hi, I'm new. I don't feel up to giving myself a proper introduction, for reasons that will become clear. I'm just hoping to settle a doubt in my mind and hope you'll be able to help. I've tried posting this elsewhere online, just trying to get as many thoughts and as much information as I can.

I don't "believe" as such in an afterlife but I am worried by doubts there might be one. Not the afterlife of any particular religion, which I see no good evidence for, but something like becoming a ghost or reincarnation. I have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (currently not one of the subtypes most people are familiar with) and it torments me. My main comfort has been knowing it won't last forever, one day I'll die. I have absolutely no fear of non-existence and find it strange that most people are afraid of the idea. When I thought I was dying a few weeks ago (panic attack I mistook for a heart attack) I wasn't scared of dying, I just thought - well I've been wishing that something would kill me so that I don't have to hurt my family by killing myself, and I'm getting my wish. I was hoping it wouldn't hurt too much and concerned for my family (I have no children or dependents but the relatives I do have would be devastated emotionally) but death itself I didn't care about.

Recently I've been thinking - what if this torment DOES go on forever? I know whole groups of people who are convinced they work in or live in haunted buildings, people I trust and don't gain anything from lying. Some of the stories I've heard about ghosts make me question - if the pattern of conscious activity called the mind, after being created by the brain, sometimes, somehow continues to exist after the thing that set in motion is no more, presumably it would be pretty much as it was when the brain died. In life I get these obsessive fears, and compulsions, so why would it be any different after death? The difference is I won't have any medication to help dampen it down. And anecdotally it seems the people who apparently hang around after death are those who had miserable deaths or have unfinished business, some kind of conflict that was never resolved. OCD is basically caused by the brain inappropriately generating an irrational feeling of unfinished business, of a major threat that must be dealt with, even after the threat has been dealt with and the intellectual part of the brain knows this. Once you've got an obsession, it just takes weeks, months or years for it to stop FEELING like it still needs to be addressed. Then you get another obsession about something else. So if anyone's going to become a ghost, it would be someone like me. And if reincarnation is real - what if I come back and suffer even more?

Can anyone help reassure me that when you're dead you STAY dead, lights out, good night Irene?

Thanks in advance,

Raz

I made a whole forum post as too why a afterlife wouldn't and cannot exist. Don't worry about it. 

[Iroscato]

So many guessing.
A mountain of guessing with no evidence of whatsoever.
How would you know that life end up with the physical death?  

Just saw this.
How do I know? I don't. But common sense and the utter lack of empirical evidence to suggest otherwise leads me to strongly believe that once the brain dies, that's it. The brain is everything you are, it has every piece of information encoded inside it that makes you 'you'. Under general anesthetic, you do not dream, you have no conscious awareness whatsoever. For all intents and purposes, you cease to exist as a conscious enitity. I posit that death is like that, except that it lasts forever rather than minutes or hours.
That is what death is to me - an instantaneous eternity.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Scientific studies in neurology, especially the study of brain injuries, have shown that everything that makes up the conscious "you" is entirely dependent upon physical brain structure.  People go through entire personality changes and cease to be the same person after severe brain injuries, most notably Phineas Gage.  Without these brain structures, there is no "you" to exist, so even if something could exist beyond death, it would devoid of everything that creates your personality, perceptions, decision making ability and so on.

Neurology has shown that who we are is all wrapped up nicely inside our skulls, and once that shuts down, the things that make you "you" no longer function.  It's just not possible for your psyche to exist after death.

"Entirely dependent" is not a fully supported by the evidence you cite.

[CapnAwesome]

If there was an afterlife, we would all know it for certain. It wouldn't be a few people who would 'think their house is haunted' we would all see ghosts regularly. There would be reliable video of ghosts and reliable evidence for them. There are 7 billion people a huge number of them who walk around with a camera in their pocket. Yet where is the ghost videos? The evidence for the afterlife is so shitty. So so shitty.

[Little Rik]

Could well be that the one (hypothetical God) who gave you the life may not like that you refuse his gift.

If I gave someone a gift that ended up torturing them, I would not be offended if they got rid of it.

---

Just look at this universe.
A million years ago or so it was all covered in vegetation while now human beings screwed it up.
Now is all polluted and the forests have left space to huge deserts.
Also the water and the air is so much polluted.
Now think for a sec that an hypothetical God created this universe.
He created it perfect.
No pollution, no deserts and so on so why God should be blamed for the rot?
The same thing (hypothetically) happen with human beings.
They came out from the animal form with no bad karma.
Nobody tortured them with all sort of trouble and sickness.
If they are sick or in trouble God can not be blame for it.
They screw themselves up with their own hands so to speak
But again God by allow you to reincarnate (hypothetically) give you the possibility
to sort out your problems.
That is why i personally think that if you throw away this possibility God will not be happy.
So if you follow this line of thinking you may understand that it is you that screw up
your previous happiness and therefore it is you that got to sort the problem out and regain
your status of a happy person.
How to sort out your problem.
First you need to understand that it is you that screw it up and God shouldn't be blame for it.
After this reasoning everything will be so much easier. 




 

[Razzle]

Just look at this universe.
A million years ago or so it was all covered in vegetation while now human beings screwed it up.
Now is all polluted and the forests have left space to huge deserts.
Also the water and the air is so much polluted.
Now think for a sec that an hypothetical God created this universe.
He created it perfect.
No pollution, no deserts and so on so why God should be blamed for the rot?
The same thing (hypothetically) happen with human beings.
They came out from the animal form with no bad karma.
Nobody tortured them with all sort of trouble and sickness.
If they are sick or in trouble God can not be blame for it.
They screw themselves up with their own hands so to speak
But again God by allow you to reincarnate (hypothetically) give you the possibility
to sort out your problems.
That is why i personally think that if you throw away this possibility God will not be happy.
So if you follow this line of thinking you may understand that it is you that screw up
your previous happiness and therefore it is you that got to sort the problem out and regain
your status of a happy person.
How to sort out your problem.
First you need to understand that it is you that screw it up and God shouldn't be blame for it.
After this reasoning everything will be so much easier. Smile

This isn't really relevant because I don't believe in gods and I have no plans to end my life, I only mentioned suicide as something I would do if it wouldn't have a huge long-term impact on several people.

However, out of curiosity, are you claiming that all illnesses are the fault of the people suffering from them? Either due to something they did in this life or a previous life? And what exactly is the nature of the solution you propose? If you're going to say I need to be a better person, I already am a pretty good person. In fact my current OCD 'theme' consists of feeling fearful for and worrying about the suffering of others, and often hyper-responsibility compulsions such as feeling compelled to give strangers a lot of money or invite them to live with me when I don't really know enough about them for that to be wise. It's not a well known or common theme but it's the most painful I've ever had. When it's really bad I spend entire days doing research and ruminating in vain attempts to answer the doubts about these situations and my own level of responsibility to do something about them. Then I dream about these things. When you treat OCD you have to resist compulsions as much as you can, because giving in to them just reinforces to the brain that the obsession does indeed still warrant attention and fear.

Many or most OCD obsessions are actually, in one way or another, about fear of harming others, either by intent ('losing control' or becoming a certain type of person) or by neglect. E.g. many or most people with contamination fears actually fear they will spread disease to other people more than they fear becoming ill themselves. Guilt is a major driving force. So telling us we ought to think even more about how to be a good, responsible person is often going to be exactly the worse thing you could do.

[Little Rik]

Just look at this universe.
A million years ago or so it was all covered in vegetation while now human beings screwed it up.
Now is all polluted and the forests have left space to huge deserts.
Also the water and the air is so much polluted.
Now think for a sec that an hypothetical God created this universe.
He created it perfect.
No pollution, no deserts and so on so why God should be blamed for the rot?
The same thing (hypothetically) happen with human beings.
They came out from the animal form with no bad karma.
Nobody tortured them with all sort of trouble and sickness.
If they are sick or in trouble God can not be blame for it.
They screw themselves up with their own hands so to speak
But again God by allow you to reincarnate (hypothetically) give you the possibility
to sort out your problems.
That is why i personally think that if you throw away this possibility God will not be happy.
So if you follow this line of thinking you may understand that it is you that screw up
your previous happiness and therefore it is you that got to sort the problem out and regain
your status of a happy person.
How to sort out your problem.
First you need to understand that it is you that screw it up and God shouldn't be blame for it.
After this reasoning everything will be so much easier.  Smile

This isn't really relevant because I don't believe in gods and I have no plans to end my life, I only mentioned suicide as something I would do if it wouldn't have a huge long-term impact on several people.

However, out of curiosity, are you claiming that all illnesses are the fault of the people suffering from them? Either due to something they did in this life or a previous life? And what exactly is the nature of the solution you propose? If you're going to say I need to be a better person, I already am a pretty good person. In fact my current OCD 'theme' consists of feeling fearful for and worrying about the suffering of others, and often hyper-responsibility compulsions such as feeling compelled to give strangers a lot of money or invite them to live with me when I don't really know enough about them for that to be wise. It's not a well known or common theme but it's the most painful I've ever had. When it's really bad I spend entire days doing research and ruminating in vain attempts to answer the doubts about these situations and my own level of responsibility to do something about them. Then I dream about these things. When you treat OCD you have to resist compulsions as much as you can, because giving in to them just reinforces to the brain that the obsession does indeed still warrant attention and fear.

Many or most OCD obsessions are actually, in one way or another, about fear of harming others, either by intent ('losing control' or becoming a certain type of person) or by neglect. E.g. many or most people with contamination fears actually fear they will spread disease to other people more than they fear becoming ill themselves. Guilt is a major driving force. So telling us we ought to think even more about how to be a good, responsible person is often going to be exactly the worse thing you could do.

I certainly believe in karma or the law of action and reaction.
Just look at the statistics.
The cops are only able to get less than 10% of criminals so how 
would be possible for these people to pay for their crimes other than
reborn again and again and go through different forms of punishment
until all the debts are paid for.
Physically speaking every action has got to have an equal and opposite 
reaction.
As far as we are stuck inside this universe i don't see how we can evade this law.
As i previously said according to me there is no way you will be able to sort out your problems until 
you realize that we screw it up and we got to fix it up.
The power within is a real mighty power able to fix everything up.
Believe in it and you will get out your present situation.