Black People - Stop Blaming Racism, Take Responsibility

[Napoléon]

THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU. I can tell you personally I do end up hating individuals who take it personally. Now if you really think Minimalist is wrong, instead of focusing on the word choices, make your own arguments. But don't think even outside this particular board you can paint someone into a corner to get them to conform to you.

You're talking shit Brian.

The only person I can see disputing anything Min's said is A theist, and he's making his own arguments just fine.

For the most part, I think everyone agrees. We know that issues are bigger than, in your words, "Just do it". That's not the fucking point.


I'll respond to what you said to me, just to highlight it:

Nobody is arguing to act out in destructive ways. STILL not an excuse for the entire country to ignore decade after decade the CONDITIONS that lead to these events.

Nobody disputes this.

It is really no different than understanding it was stupid for the Allies after WW1 to leave Germany to rot.

Nobody disputes this.

No one is making excuses here.

A couple people have.

We also know what causes hurricanes too, and by knowing that we can work to get out of the way and build better building codes to insure minimal damage.

Nobody disputes this.

Blacks don't want the crime. Blacks don't like the poverty or lack of opportunity.

Nobody disputes this.

"Just do it" is a bullshit attitude and this isn't just about blacks to a growing degree now, the pay gap is growing to hurt everyone even more. Without investment in good pay and investment in society, poverty hurts everyone.

It's really grating on my tits how people continually miss the point. You clearly haven't read the entire thread.

For starters, what's been suggested, isn't your simplified "Just do it".

Nobody suggested that the answer to all the problems in the world was to "Just do it". So get that out your damn head.

But if you honestly think, there is not an existing issue with attitudes in black communities, attitudes like "fuck the police", "don't snitch" etc. then (and this is me being blunt brian, read the point not the way I phrase it), you're a fucking imbecile with his head in the sand.

For all your talk about making arguments, the only people to offer a single way to improve anything, are those who acknowledge that the black communities have issues they need to deal with themselves.

People like you, like Min, like Dystopia, you keep banging on about shit that no one really disputes. About shit that doesn't solve anything. You're highlighting all these reasons for the way it is, but I haven't seen a single one of you actually suggest a way that black communities can improve the situation. Or anyone else for that matter. I mean, ofcourse it's not just the black communty's responsibility, nobody said it was, but improving on some of the attitudes in black communities can only serve to aid the situation right? Are we really not on the same page with that?

I am sick of this crap that we ignore that the economy hurts blacks more than other groups. The reason we are still seeing crap that should have ended during the civil rights movement even today, is because we are allowing one class to divide middle class whites and poor whites against middle class blacks and poor blacks.

Umm, I'm baffled. Please highlight, a single post in this thread, that has disputed that the economy hurts black people. Or for that matter that ignores it.

LETS focus on the assholes causing the pay gap and end corporate welfare.

In what way? What do you suggest be done?

At least other people's suggestions are in some way tangible, and plausible.


As for the rest of what you're saying to Bad Wolf, Brian, I honestly don't get what the fuck you're getting at, really. Nobody is even arguing points with you guys but you seem intent on arguing for the sake of it.

Seems to me in this thread, there's a few people who want to talk about solutions and a few people who want to talk about reasons.

Now neither is necessarily a bad thing to talk about, but to all those peeps banging on about reasons for this and reasons for that, please understand, I don't think anyone in the thread disagrees. So, in the politest way, shut the fuck up. That's not the point of what we're talking about in this thread.

[Bad Wolf]

No, you missed his point, like far too many do. Blacks get treated differently. That will not change unless you stop ignoring it.

There is a long term issue going on, something Minimalist and I and sane people and blacks get. You have yet to get it or you wouldn't have responded to his example with the status quo ignorance that still persists. 

You got stuck in the moment, Minimalist and I are not stuck in the moment. Pull your head out of your ass and look at the totality of the history of economics and race in this country. When you do that you will understand his post in response to you.

Point is there really is no argument to be had, just far to many still defending that which should not be defended. 

What the fuck is wrong with you? Serioulsy, can you answer me that? What point do you think i'm trying to me? Please i want to know what you think I'm aruging for or against because either way I know that you'll be wrong. I shall repeat: I AM NOT MAKING ANY POINTS, I AM NOT DEFENDING ANTHYING, I'M NOT ARUGING ANTYING, I DIDN'T SAY BLACK AREN'T TREATED DIFFERENTLY, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ECONOMICS.

MINIMALIST SAID SOMETHING THAT I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND, AND THEN REFUSED TO EXPLAIN WHEN I ASKED. THAT IS LITERALLY ALL THAT IS GOING ON HERE.

[Brian37]

THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU. I can tell you personally I do end up hating individuals who take it personally. Now if you really think Minimalist is wrong, instead of focusing on the word choices, make your own arguments. But don't think even outside this particular board you can paint someone into a corner to get them to conform to you.

You're talking shit Brian.

The only person I can see disputing anything Min's said is A theist, and he's making his own arguments just fine.

For the most part, I think everyone agrees. We know that issues are bigger than, in your words, "Just do it". That's not the fucking point.


I'll respond to what you said to me, just to highlight it:

Nobody is arguing to act out in destructive ways. STILL not an excuse for the entire country to ignore decade after decade the CONDITIONS that lead to these events.

Nobody disputes this.

It is really no different than understanding it was stupid for the Allies after WW1 to leave Germany to rot.

Nobody disputes this.

No one is making excuses here.

A couple people have.

We also know what causes hurricanes too, and by knowing that we can work to get out of the way and build better building codes to insure minimal damage.

Nobody disputes this.

Blacks don't want the crime. Blacks don't like the poverty or lack of opportunity.

Nobody disputes this.

"Just do it" is a bullshit attitude and this isn't just about blacks to a growing degree now, the pay gap is growing to hurt everyone even more. Without investment in good pay and investment in society, poverty hurts everyone.

It's really grating on my tits how people continually miss the point. You clearly haven't read the entire thread.

For starters, what's been suggested, isn't your simplified "Just do it".

Nobody suggested that the answer to all the problems in the world was to "Just do it". So get that out your damn head.

But if you honestly think, there is not an existing issue with attitudes in black communities, attitudes like "fuck the police", "don't snitch" etc. then (and this is me being blunt brian, read the point not the way I phrase it), you're a fucking imbecile with his head in the sand.

For all your talk about making arguments, the only people to offer a single way are those who acknowledge that the black communities have issues they need to deal with themselves.

People like you, like Min, like Dystopia, you keep banging on about shit that no one really disputes. About shit that doesn't solve anything. You're highlighting all these reasons for the way it is, but I haven't seen a single one of you actually suggest a way that black communities can improve the situation. Or anyone else for that matter. I mean, ofcourse it's not just the black communty's responsibility, nobody said it was, but improving on some of the attitudes in black communities can only serve to aid the situation right? Are we really not on the same page with that?

I am sick of this crap that we ignore that the economy hurts blacks more than other groups. The reason we are still seeing crap that should have ended during the civil rights movement even today, is because we are allowing one class to divide middle class whites and poor whites against middle class blacks and poor blacks.

Umm, I'm baffled. Please highlight, a single post in this thread, that has disputed that the economy hurts black people.

LETS focus on the assholes causing the pay gap and end corporate welfare.

In what way? What do you suggest be done?

At least other people's suggestions are in some way tangible, and plausible.


As for the rest of what you're saying to Bad Wolf, Brian, I honestly don't get what the fuck you're getting at, really. Nobody is even arguing points with you guys but you seem intent on arguing for the sake of it.

Seems to me in this thread, there's a few people who want to talk about solutions and a few people who want to talk about reasons.

Now neither is necessarily a bad thing to talk about, but to all those peeps banging on about reasons for this and reasons for that, please understand, I don't think anyone in the thread disagrees. So, in the politest way, shut the fuck up. That's not the point of what we're talking about in this thread.

Like far to many, even outside this particular subject, humans get stuck in the moment when there are long term issues going on. You see the same music playing over and over and know it is a broken record skipping, you know there really is no argument outside maintaining the status quo.

There is no argument to be had. This i no different to me than big oil ignoring climate change. Others have besides me constantly stated that crime and rioting are not excuses because bad things happen. 

BUT AGAIN you cant simplify solutions with blame. You solve problems by understanding conditions. 

BULLSHIT, we are discussing reasons. THE REASON is that the rich and the right love dividing the races and the REAL issue has always been ECONOMICS.

FOR THE LAST FUCKING TIME, no one, especially not blacks, are making excuses. Only idiots are ignoring that blacks are still hurt worse by the economy. FACE THAT things will get fixed. Even Martin Luther King Jr understood this. He knew, and I agree, an economy is only as good as the ability of the least in it to survive. He knew that the better minorities did the better everyone would do. 

This is not the only page I state this at and you are not the only person liberal whites and liberal blacks make this argument at. Look at the bigger history instead of getting focused on one thread. 

[Napoléon]

Like far to many, even outside this particular subject, humans get stuck in the moment when there are long term issues going on. You see the same music playing over and over and know it is a broken record skipping, you know there really is no argument outside maintaining the status quo.

You still talking?

There is no argument to be had.

Then what are you continually arguing for?

BUT AGAIN you cant simplify solutions with blame.

What does the thread title say Brian? What does it fucking say?

You solve problems by understanding conditions.

You solve problems by coming up with solutions.
 

BULLSHIT, we are discussing reasons. THE REASON is that the rich and the right love dividing the races and the REAL issue has always been ECONOMICS.

Make your own thread then, because I'm not.

It's been stated, by myself several times, and others, that the problems stems from economics, and race is related to that.

Guess if you read the thread you'd had noticed that.

Just for reference, me and another member backing up what you're saying:

Post 21 - http://atheistforums.org/thread-33017-po...#pid929917

Post 32 - http://atheistforums.org/thread-33017-po...#pid930508

Post 33 - http://atheistforums.org/thread-33017-po...#pid930509

FOR THE LAST FUCKING TIME, no one, especially not blacks, are making excuses.

Well I got the distinct impression earlier on in the thread that Dystopia was. People like Kitan coming through shouting "I'm glad they rioted" didn't exactly point to logic either.

Besides that, there are people in black communities who do use it as an excuse. Watch the clips of the documentaries I've posted throughout the thread. That's as much evidence of that as you should really need.

Only idiots are ignoring that blacks are still hurt worse by the economy.

Who's ignoring it Brian? Give an example of a post?

Like getting blood from a stone.

FACE THAT things will get fixed. Even Martin Luther King Jr understood this. He knew, and I agree, an economy is only as good as the ability of the least in it to survive. He knew that that the better minorities did the better everyone would do.

BRIAN!

You hit the nail on the head mate!

You've just summed up, everything this thread is about.

The better minorities do, the better everyone does.

And what is a good way for minorities to do better? We could get rid of corporate welfare, like you suggest, that might help shit, eventually. Or maybe we could look at the attitudes many black people perpetuate? The same attitudes that limit ambition? That seems like a good suggestion right?

Honestly Brian, I think we're on the same page, we're just focusing on different things.

Now you might be perfectly justified in everything you say, but most, if not all of the points you've made otherwise, aren't the point of the thread dude.

This is not the only page I state this at and you are not the only person liberal whites and liberal blacks make this argument at. Look at the bigger history instead of getting focused on one thread. 

So I'm a guy, suggesting one possible solution, or something that might make things better, and your attitude is to bash me over the head and constantly say "look at this mess, look at the reasons for this mess!".

But I'm saying:

"What if the people in the mess changed their attitudes a bit, that might help?"

You:
"You're ignoring everything else! Focus on the bigger history!"

Me:
"I'm not ignoring everything else, just highlighting one suggestion to make things better"

You
"You're ignoring everything else! Focus on the bigger history!"

Me:
"Uh, I'm not mate, I understand the history, we need to do more things too, but this is just one wa-"

"STOP IGNORING THE POINT, URHGHGH RUGHH GHRUGH".

Me:
"But this is my thread, I want to make my point"

You:
"My thread now hurr durr"

Basically a summary of this thread thus far.

[FatAndFaithless]

[Brian37]

Liberal whites and liberal blacks cant get credit for cheering that woman on for stopping her son from getting stupid. I don't give one shit about the title of the thread. If you agree "take responsibility" is part of it, then CONDITIONS MATTER. Blacks understand this, those who over simplify it blaming them, even when blacks themselves are not excusing crime, is the fucking issue.

That mother in interviews afterwords said, she doesn't want her son involved in gangs or crime or riots. That still does not change that economics lead to those conditions, for the same reason Somalians get desperate to the point of kidnapping. NO ONE IS EXCUSING IT. Just like you understand why hurricanes happen doesn't mean you want a hurricane affecting you.

Poverty will always produce destructive conditions and at this point in our history, in America blacks are hurt worse by poverty. You want poverty and race issues to go away, than accept our history first.

It is no different than physics, a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. Elevate the economy of blacks is not a handout, it is an investment. But again, the longer the pay gap explodes the worse it will divide us on issues of class and race. Accepting a problem is not excuse making.

[Napoléon]

It's no wonder the conversation is going over brian's point when brian's point is really quite inconsequential to the point of the conversation.

---

Accepting a problem is not excuse making.

This is going nowhere.

[FatAndFaithless]

It's no wonder the conversation is going over brian's point when brian's point is really quite inconsequential to the point of the conversation.

That was, if you'll excuse me, my 'point'

[Napoléon]

That was, if you'll excuse me, my 'point'

Damnit, a misunderstanding! I better keep on repeating myself to save face.

[Mudhammam]

Lol Napoleon and FF, you guys are crackin' me up.