What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[Ravenshire]

Self defense is not murder. ;-)

That's usually what the state calls it when the charges against you are filed. Self-defense is a legal defense used in murder trials.

[Randy Carson]

I tried to register there, and got the message that they were not accepting new registrations:

A note to all concerning registrations at Catholic Answers

Several people have experienced this, so I feel a word of explanation is in order.

Because of problems caused by spammers from India posting ads, Catholic Answers only accepts new registrations during normal business hours M-F Pacific Time. This enables staffers to verify each registration before approving it.

I'm sure the staff here can appreciate the difficulties posed by this type of spam, and I apologize on behalf of CA for any inconvenience.

[Catholic_Lady]

I am not asking you to agree with me. Just to understand what I am saying. Do you still not understand, or are you just saying you don't agree? What you just said above seems to indicate that you do not understand.

Let me try to explain it in the form of a question:

So, back to the American justice metaphor.

Murder is a crime. It is not lawful. It is not legal. It is a crime, period. This is American law.

If the insane person who murdered 10 shoppers at the mall got an innocent for reason of insanity verdict, does that mean that murder ceases to be a crime? Does the fact that some murderers get the innocent for reason of insanity verdict mean that murder stops being a crime?

Since when are crime and morality equal? Just because something is a crime does not mean it's immoral. Just because something is immoral does not mean it's a crime.

Using criminal law to explain morality is a fools game.

I was showing the concept of how an act can remain the same objectively, while the people who commit these acts can have different degrees of culpability.

Not trying to get you to agree, just wanna make sure you understand the concept.

[Cyberman]

Could God force us to do something? Sure.

But He has chosen to give us free will and to honor it.

How much resentment would we have against God if He didn't?

None at all, by definition.

[Catholic_Lady]

Unless she acted to save her child's life (which doesn't sound like it) I do not think it was a moral act.

Wow, I'm... Not at all surprised, sadly.

I believe killing is only moral in self defense. I'm sorry if you find this sad.

[Ravenshire]

However, one cannot help but wonder at the barbaric Japanese treatment of the Chinese and the Allied prisoners of war during WWII.

Yes, especially since that came after the introduction of the christer faith to their culture.

[Ravenshire]

Since when are crime and morality equal? Just because something is a crime does not mean it's immoral. Just because something is immoral does not mean it's a crime.

Using criminal law to explain morality is a fools game.

I was showing the concept of how an act can remain the same objectively, while the people who commit these acts can have different degrees of culpability.

Not trying to get you to agree, just wanna make sure you understand the concept.

Oh, believe me. I understand the concept behind what you call objective morality. I just find it morally reprehensible.

[Ravenshire]

Wow, I'm... Not at all surprised, sadly.

I believe killing is only moral in self defense. I'm sorry if you find this sad.

Killing in defense of others whose lives are not in immediate danger would be immoral in your eyes, yes?

[rexbeccarox]

Oh, gosh, C-L; I'm really sorry I missed your reply.

Murder: so, when God does it, it's not immoral?

Correct. That would be capital punishment...same as when we put a prisoner to death for a serious crime.

I think capital punishment is immoral.

Rape: when God condones it it's not bad?

For context, in which verse does God do this?

Try verses:

Deut. 20:10-14 (command about attacking the town and taking women for themselves)
"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.  If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.  But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.  When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder.  You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you."

Deut. 22:23-24 (rules for stoning a rape victim to death)
"If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife."

Numbers 31:18 (what do you think keeping virgins for themselves entailed?)
"Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

Deut. 22:28-29 (rules about a rape victim being made to marry her rapist)
"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her."

And that's just a few.  Spare me the OT vs. NT rhetoric; is it not the same god?

Theft: do you really think that theft is an objectively immoral thing to do?  You can't think of any reasons why you might condone theft?

Not going to answer this one?

Adultery: My grandmother was dying with Alzheimer's for a LONG time- she wasn't herself for the last six years of her life.  Do you think it was objectively immoral for my 80-year-old grandfather to seek out companionship elsewhere while still devoting most of his time and energy to my grandmother?

Yes. "For better, for worse, in sickness and in health, till death do us part." Those words were part of my vows, anyway.

Did you miss the part where I said, "devoting most of his time and energy to my grandmother"?  You are such an insincere fuck.

Slavery: when God condones it, it's not immoral?

I have already shown God softened slavery in ways that non-godly nations did not. I have also explained how God worked with His people over time to bring them to a more enlightened understanding.

You have shown nothing of the sort.  Your vile apologetics are utterly unconvincing.

Calumny: what if your god slandered Satan to make sure he didn't have more people to rule over in hell?  Would that be immoral?

No. The example is absurd, because slander is a false statement and God doesn't lie.

It seems weird that you kinda want him to, somehow...

It seems kinda weird that he obviously does lie and deceive, but yet you will do every kind of bend to make it not seem so.

[Randy Carson]

The act. Stealing is inherently wrong.

Because you say so?  Because the Catholic church says so?  You can't think of any situation in which it is morally right to steal?

It is acceptable for a starving person to steal food, but not more than is necessary.

From the Catechism:

2408 The seventh commandment forbids theft, that is, usurping another's property against the reasonable will of the owner. There is no theft if consent can be presumed or if refusal is contrary to reason and the universal destination of goods. This is the case in obvious and urgent necessity when the only way to provide for immediate, essential needs (food, shelter, clothing . . .) is to put at one's disposal and use the property of others.191