Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: November 8, 2024, 8:36 am

Thread Rating:
  • 7 Vote(s) - 1.57 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
Just let it die.
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot

We are the United States of Amnesia, we learn nothing because we remember nothing. - Gore Vidal
Reply
RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
(July 19, 2015 at 8:39 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Didn't you just get done saying there is no evidence?

(July 19, 2015 at 8:39 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Your right, what you've presented isn't overwhelming.  You have a real talent for understatement, you know.

(July 19, 2015 at 8:47 pm)Jenny A Wrote: That is the biggest cop-out there ever was. 

God maintains a delicate balance between keeping His existence sufficiently evident so people will know he's there and yet hiding his presence enough so that people who want to choose to ignore Him can do so. This way, their choice of destiny is really free.
Reply
RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
(July 19, 2015 at 10:07 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Fact number 2 is a thinly veiled declaration that the resurrection actually happened.  All the other 'facts' are red herrings to distract from the questions which surround fact #2.  Supposedly, the disciples were martyred still clinging to their story of a physical resurrection.  Supposedly, the only reason they would have done so is if they truly believed.  Supposedly, they would only have truly believed if they had witnessed it.  And supposedly, they would only have witnessed it if it actually happened.  However, the belief part is a side effect of the resurrection story.  It wouldn't have made sense to tell a tale of resurrection without witnesses to vouch for the story.  The existence of witnesses is demanded by the consistency of the story.  So the two together form a single piece of embellishment.  So #2 is just a stalking horse for these other claims.  It's little more than claiming that the miracle of the resurrection is a historical fact.  But miracles are supposed to be excluded from historical reconstruction.  "Fact #2" is little more than an illicit attempt to sneak a miracle in the back door.

#2 is not a thinly veiled declaration of anything. It is a shout from the rooftops.

The disciples BELIEVED that Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to them.

Whether he did not not is still up for discussion, but there is no doubt about the fact that they believed that they saw him alive.

Do you have any theories that explain this?
Reply
RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
(July 19, 2015 at 10:12 pm)IATIA Wrote:
(July 19, 2015 at 8:36 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Because I have shown you the evidence for God's existence that does exist.

Ancient books on mythology do not prove the existence of a god nor do books addressing the ancient books on mythology.  What else you got?

Is this the view of professional scholars who have spent their lives studying this material? The atheists and skeptics, I mean. What is their view?

[Image: wink.gif]
Reply
RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
(July 20, 2015 at 7:49 am)Cato Wrote:
(July 19, 2015 at 8:36 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Because I have shown you the evidence for God's existence that does exist. It is compelling, but it is not so overwhelming that you have no choice but to accept it...if that were the case, you would resent God for being too overbearing.

If you choose to follow the clues that He has left, you will find Him. The choice is yours.

And now we have it, finally; the "I have no evidence for god" cop-out.

The rationalizations Randy mistakenly calls evidence are only compelling to someone that has already uncritically accepted the claim, but still clings to a desire to have the belief legitimized. He is right in one respect, the choice is mine. I choose not to believe in unsubstantiated bullshit.

You see my posts. They're pretty much in your face.

Refute them or get lost. [Image: ani_yup.gif]
Reply
RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
(July 22, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: The disciples BELIEVED that Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to them.

Please, provide any credible evidence of the disciples even existing before we take this any further. Someone claimed the above. There's no evidence for the above. Do you really not get that?
[Image: Bumper+Sticker+-+Asheville+-+Praise+Dog3.JPG]
Reply
RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
(July 20, 2015 at 7:52 am)Pandæmonium Wrote:
(July 19, 2015 at 8:48 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Yep he did.

So much for the minimal facts.

103 pages to realise what everyone else was saying on page 1.

I have presented evidence for all five facts. Have you provided historical evidence to refute even one of them?
Reply
RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
(July 20, 2015 at 9:06 am)RobbyPants Wrote:
(June 24, 2015 at 9:25 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Very Doubtful      Quite Doubtful      Somewhat Doubtful    Uncertain     Somewhat Certain    Quite Certain     Very Certain
______|____________|________________|____________|_____________|______________|___________|____


We will be seeking to determine whether the evidence for the resurrection moves us to the right or left of the mid-point (uncertain) of this range of opinions.

Why should we start at "uncertain"? If someone opens up by trying to prove that something magical happened, why shouldn't I default to "very doubtful"?

If I made any of the three following claims
  • I drove my car to work today.
  • I flew my helicopter to work today.
  • I flew my Pegasus to work today.
, would you think it's reasonable to start at "uncertain" for all three of them?

I don't really care where you start...it only matters where you finish.

If you have any historical evidence that would refute any of my five facts and that has been overlooked by the thousands of professional NT scholars teaching at major universities throughout the Western world who accept them, would you mind sharing it with us?
Reply
RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
(July 20, 2015 at 10:14 pm)Jenny A Wrote:
(July 19, 2015 at 8:06 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: So, based upon all the evidence that Stimbo listed, you would have no choice but to convict my wife of the 13 murders.

Fair enough.  I would too, if the evidence was strong enough.

But that's just it, Jenny, God is not in the business of FORCING anyone to make a decision based on evidence. That would be coercive.

He provides just enough clues for each soul to find and follow IF you are so inclined, but He does not force Himself upon you.

You'll find my somewhat lengthy answer here: http://atheistforums.org/thread-34856.html

And you'll find my brief, but unassailable response here.
Reply
RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
(July 22, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Do you have any theories that explain this?

Lot's of people believed they saw Elvis after he died too.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Proving evolution? LinuxGal 24 3496 March 19, 2023 at 10:36 pm
Last Post: Ferrocyanide
  What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God? Greatest I am 98 9316 December 28, 2020 at 12:01 pm
Last Post: Greatest I am
  In what way is the Resurrection the best explanation? GrandizerII 159 20691 November 25, 2019 at 6:46 am
Last Post: Abaddon_ire
  Travis Walton versus The Resurrection. Jehanne 61 17825 November 29, 2017 at 8:21 pm
Last Post: Angrboda
  Why do Christians believe in the Resurrection of Jesus but not alien abductions? Jehanne 72 13379 June 27, 2016 at 1:54 am
Last Post: Redbeard The Pink
  We can be certain of NO resurrection - A Response Randy Carson 136 41918 October 2, 2015 at 4:10 am
Last Post: Aractus
  Disproving The Resurrection By The Maximal Facts Approach BrianSoddingBoru4 160 29761 July 5, 2015 at 6:35 pm
Last Post: Jenny A
  Obama and the simulated resurrection professor 116 20745 April 25, 2015 at 10:39 pm
Last Post: Wyrd of Gawd
  MERGED: The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ (Part 1) & (Part 2) His_Majesty 1617 383627 January 12, 2015 at 5:58 pm
Last Post: dyresand
  The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ (Part Ad Neuseum) YahwehIsTheWay 32 7859 December 11, 2014 at 4:58 pm
Last Post: robvalue



Users browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)