atheism and children

[Catholic_Lady]

I'm traveling today and will be on a plane soon, so if anyone asks anymore questions, just know I probably won't get to it for a while since I'll be on vacation and devoting any time I have on here to playing MAFIA!!!!!

Thanks again for being respectful, everyone. :-)

[Javaman]

I just gotta say, I love all the thoughtful critiques of the Catholic's Church's position on IVF. Reading through everyone's comments (sans CL's of course) really emphasizes how arbitrary, petty, and (above all) nonsensical that position is. The issue is a bit too near to me, especially as a former Catholic, to remain calm, cool, and collected.

Based on CL's (and kingpin's) comments, it seems like absolutely everything involved with IVF is sacred, right down to the very medical implements necessary for IVF to occur. Yet there's this tiny little moment of immorality when sperm meets egg that is unacceptable to the Church. It's woo of the purest gibberish.

Even though I'm happy and proud beyond measure of my two boys, I'm still very aware of the social stigma attached to IVF chlildren; I've had many conversations with others who keep their infertility issues private because they feel a sense of shame that they need to use assisted reproductive technologies to have a child. As I said in my very first post, the Catholic Church's position pisses me off -- it amounts to "piling on" and seemingly justifies bigoted attitudes towards IVF.

My wife and I have not hid the details of their conception from our sons: my oldest has already received some comments from his religious classmates when he mentions how the doctors and nurses helped mommy and daddy make him. While I know he's strong enough to handle it, it irks me that he has to handle it in the first place.


Anyways, keep up the good work people.

[Catholic_Lady]

I like I said in one of my first posts to you, Javaman, I'm sure you have a beautiful family. :-)

[Fidel_Castronaut]

I just gotta say, I love all the thoughtful critiques of the Catholic's Church's position on IVF. Reading through everyone's comments (sans CL's of course) really emphasizes how arbitrary, petty, and (above all) nonsensical that position is. The issue is a bit too near to me, especially as a former Catholic, to remain calm, cool, and collected.

Based on CL's (and kingpin's) comments, it seems like absolutely everything involved with IVF is sacred, right down to the very medical implements necessary for IVF to occur. Yet there's this tiny little moment of immorality when sperm meets egg that is unacceptable to the Church. It's woo of the purest gibberish.

Even though I'm happy and proud beyond measure of my two boys, I'm still very aware of the social stigma attached to IVF chlildren; I've had many conversations with others who keep their infertility issues private because they feel a sense of shame that they need to use assisted reproductive technologies to have a child. As I said in my very first post, the Catholic Church's position pisses me off -- it amounts to "piling on" and seemingly justifies bigoted attitudes towards IVF.

My wife and I have not hid the details of their conception from our sons: my oldest has already received some comments from his religious classmates when he mentions how the doctors and nurses helped mommy and daddy make him. While I know he's strong enough to handle it, it irks me that he has to handle it in the first place.


Anyways, keep up the good work people.

RE: Bold, it irks me too, a lot, and it goes back to my point about the de-humanization of people classed as an 'other' by religious institutions for no other reason than "dunno, not 'sacred' innit?"

Modern medicine has helped hundreds of millions, if not billions, in both conception and birth. I don't need to post figures of death rates in women and children during birth even as little as 40/50 years ago before modern medicine finally got to grips with the trauma that is child birth. Presumably the RCC doesn't give a shit about, as an example, epidruals and other birth anesthesia, but use that same science to help couples struggling or unable to conceive and it's "nope! Sacred police gotta get in and stop that shit."

There should be no stigma towards IVF children. They're no different to non-IVF children. You're right when you describe all this criticism through morality as woo, because that's exactly what it is. Kudos to you and your children.

[Clueless Morgan]

Was just thinking about this and I'm pretty sure I know the answer but I don't want to assume. 'Cause you know what happens then...

CL, are you against death with dignity laws? (AKA Doctor assisted suicide)

[Nay_Sayer]

I have custody of my Niece and Nephew, Both of which grew out of having imaginary friends by the ages of 5, You'll get there op.

[Catholic_Lady]

Was just thinking about this and I'm pretty sure I know the answer but I don't want to assume.  'Cause you know what happens then...

CL, are you against death with dignity laws?  (AKA Doctor assisted suicide)

While I don't support assisted suicide, morally, I do not think it should be illegal. I don't think it's right, mind you, but if someone wants to end their own life they should have the legal right to do so.

[Kingpin]

Was just thinking about this and I'm pretty sure I know the answer but I don't want to assume.  'Cause you know what happens then...

CL, are you against death with dignity laws?  (AKA Doctor assisted suicide)

While I don't support assisted suicide, morally, I do not think it should be illegal. I don't think it's right, mind you, but if someone wants to end their own life they should have the legal right to do so.

Yes topics like right to life and abortion are controversial for a reason. There are moral thoughts on it but nobody is in a position to make a judgment of others choices.

[Catholic_Lady]

While I don't support assisted suicide, morally, I do not think it should be illegal. I don't think it's right, mind you, but if someone wants to end their own life they should have the legal right to do so.

Yes topics like right to life and abortion are controversial for a reason. There are moral thoughts on it but nobody is in a position to make a judgment of others choices.

I don't think abortion should be legal because it's killing another person. But things like heroin (or others), prostitution, and assisted suicide, while I don't support morally, I don't think should be illegal because you're not taking away the rights of another person.

[Clueless Morgan]

I don't think abortion should be legal because it's killing another person. But things like heroin (or others), prostitution, and assisted suicide, while I don't support morally, I don't think should be illegal because you're not taking away the rights of another person.

do you support, or at least accept the premise, that you can be in the morally "correct" position and still "need" to kill someone? For example: you could kill someone in self defense, or in the defense of someone else who is imminently in danger of being killed by someone else.