Imagination vs. God

[robvalue]

Let's pretend that a god exists, and it's any of the popular religious characters. Let's say he had at least a very strong influence in my "construction".

Now. I feel it's fair to say he is responsible for the scope of my imagination at least, if not the fine details.

I can very easily imagine a god much more powerful, impressive, loving and intelligent than the stories told about him, and by considering the quality of his work.

I can very easily imagine a reality where myself, and everyone, would be much happier in every way while retaining free will. The current reality isn't even anywhere close to that, the rating I would give it is very close to zero out of a million. This is bargain basement fucking awful.

So the question is: why would this God give me the ability to very easily imagine beings much superior to him, and taunt me with visions of an infinitely better existence than the one he has given me? Is my imagination superior to his potential, or is he deliberately being sadistic? If my imagination isn't superior to him, his power is far greater than anyone has ever described to me, and pathetic excuses about him not being able to get ancient people to stop having slaves are even more laughable. Or having to fine tune the universal constants exactly just to edge a tiny amount of hospitable environment into play for us.

If you think this is the best world a powerful God who really cares about us could make, even while expending no effort or resources, your imagination is clearly dwarfed by mine. And assuming it's the same God as yours, my imagination wins. He made me too.

I imagine the first response to the "infinitely better reality" wil be that he is showing me glimpses of heaven. Well, it doesn't seem anything like what anyone has described heaven to be, which is shit awful. Also, he's not there, and we still have free will which is apparently impossible if there was no evil according to many theists. And even if he is taunting me with heaven, he's simultaneously inflicting a reality on me so horrible that I've been suicidal for 8 years. Presumably killing myself would fail whatever kind of sick "test" this is meant to me. Fuck tests. Testing us in this way, while showing perfect happiness then snatching it away for not achieving arbitrary goals and toadying around him implies a psychotic, evil God who for all we know sends no one to this "heaven". And that's his own creation reviewing him, with a mind largely influenced by him.

Once again, whatever road I take with these comic book character gods, I find myself totally unwilling to worship them or align myself with them in any way even if I thought they were real. This moral rejection argument is I think far more potent towards religious theists than the lack of evidence. This can't be scooted around with the argument from ignorance.

[Longhorn]

WELCOME BACK ROB!!!

There's so many holes in god, I wonder if I should make a map to help the fuckers get their own story straight -_-

[ignoramus]

Rob, what about this...
God couldn't have created us without imaginations, because without it, he wouldn't exist as he IS a product of our imagination!

Do I get a prize for the craziest chicken/egg scenario or WHAT? hehe

[robvalue]

Good answers

Thanks very much Vic, good to be back I'm exercising some willpower and not going on the forum too much each day.

[Bob Kelso]

Excellent post. I've often thought the same thing, Rob.

I've put it to people like this;

Imagine yourself in a white void, that stretches as far as you can possibly conceive. Now within that void is only you, how you came to be is of no great concern and time and space are nonexistent. You have the limitless power of creative energy; which means that anything you can possibly imagine you can bring into being. This power coupled with an infinite amount of "time" (for simplicity's sake) means that you can create the universe as you see fit.

Can you imagine a better world than the one we live in now? Even if that world is only marginally better, your imagination is far superior to that of the god you hold in reverence.

---

To me (if he were real) god would always be that guy who could have created actual Pokemon, a fantastical universe of magic, or a utopia but thought;

"Nah. How about spiders, mundane bullshit and a world full of pain, misery, and fleeting bits of happiness."

[robvalue]

Thanks very much my friend

It really boggles my mind that people think this is the best a god can do. I mean, really? I've had dreams where I've been in a better "reality". I'm not even consciously choosing to make it better, which I can obviously do instantly in my imagination. Even my random subconscious can do better.

[Pyrrho]

Thanks very much my friend

It really boggles my mind that people think this is the best a god can do. I mean, really? I've had dreams where I've been in a better "reality". I'm not even consciously choosing to make it better, which I can obviously do instantly in my imagination. Even my random subconscious can do better.

When Leibniz asserted that 'this is the best of all possible worlds' (due to the idea that a perfect god would only make the best of all possible worlds), Voltaire wrote Candide, a brilliant little book mercilessly mocking that idea.  You might enjoy Candide, which is short enough that it can be read in one day.

[Whateverist]

I can very easily imagine a god much more powerful, impressive, loving and intelligent than the stories told about him, and by considering the quality of his work.

But then it is just so hard to find good help these days.  Never mind a competent god, when was last time you had a competent plumber over?


[Okay, got that off my chest.  Now to go back and see where your TL;DR scree might be going.)

[Whateverist]

So the question is: why would this God give me the ability to very easily imagine beings much superior to him, and taunt me with visions of an infinitely better existence than the one he has given me? Is my imagination superior to his potential, or is he deliberately being sadistic? If my imagination isn't superior to him, his power is far greater than anyone has ever described to me, and pathetic excuses about him not being able to get ancient people to stop having slaves are even more laughable. Or having to fine tune the universal constants exactly just to edge a tiny amount of hospitable environment into play for us.

I think you've put your finger on it. Just leave off all the omni- bullshit and your problem is solved.

Once again, whatever road I take with these comic book character gods, I find myself totally unwilling to worship them or align myself with them in any way even if I thought they were real. This moral rejection argument is I think far more potent towards religious theists than the lack of evidence. This can't be scooted around with the argument from ignorance.

[My bold.] Yeah but if you dial back on the omni- reading, a theist can go on thinking some combination of God is doing the best he can with our imperfections and/or that we ourselves are somehow to blame. Self blame seems to be a staple in the mindset of every theist.

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

Okay,so get this,when i was a VERY devoted Christian(and very young and extremely gullible)i was very frustrated with God not showing up to me.
So i thought i'd jump off a building of this hospital i regularly went,to to see my Dad.
I had it all planned out.I will jump and God will catch me mid-air and carry me to Paradise.

I can't imagine if i had actually done it.
Fucking Jesus asshole almost got me killed! Argh!