Sin & Forgiveness

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Good sir, My beliefs and my questions are two different things. In my humble opinion my beliefs are applicable to everyone on this planet. It simple cause and effect. Laws of nature. No one or anything can tell you your going to hell or heaven if you don't believe in it To address your question i have no intention of starving to death. I wish to live this life righteous (morally) , do good the world and die.

I understand the difference between beliefs and questions, so I hardly need you to lecture me on that point.

Of course you think your religious beliefs are applicable to everyone on the planet - all religious nutters think so. And you have the gall to call this opinion of yours 'humble'. It is arrogant in the extreme.

So, you're going to live a fine, upstanding moral life and be reborn as what, exactly?

Boru

[miaharun]

Good sir, My beliefs and my questions are two different things. In my humble opinion my beliefs are applicable to everyone on this planet. It simple cause and effect. Laws of nature. No one or anything can tell you your going to hell or heaven if you don't believe in it To address your question i have no intention of starving to death. I wish to live this life righteous (morally) , do good the world and die.

I understand the difference between beliefs and questions, so I hardly need you to lecture me on that point.

Of course you think your religious beliefs are applicable to everyone on the planet - all religious nutters think so. And you have the gall to call this opinion of yours 'humble'. It is arrogant in the extreme.

So, you're going to live a fine, upstanding moral life and be reborn as what, exactly?

Boru

I apologize for that. Good sir, I don't follow a religion where people are forced to adhere to whatever the leaders/books preach regardless of moral thinking. Instead i follow a philosophy where i can question back what i have been thought and move on from there. Its a way to live a righteous life, whether to drop it or find something else it most certainly up to the person. To be honest i don't know what will happen when i die. I might go to heaven, hell or be reborn or just cease to exist. However for any of those i would want to live a peaceful life and making the world a better place than where i came from. Live to be righteous as possible.

[The Grand Nudger]

Very well detailed indeed. Yes you are very correct sir. However Karma is not the very same concepts like forgiveness. Very simply one does an action and there is a reaction.

Of course it isn't the same...if it were the same it would be called forgiveneness, not karma.  Similarly, if karma were cause and effect it would be called cause and effect....not karma.  Nevertheless, both the christian concept of forgiveness and the buddhist concept of karma flirt with those same portions of our psyche.

Reaction depends on the actions if its good or bad.

This is not cause and effect.  There is no "good" or "bad" in cause and effect.  

There is no escape and there shouldn't be.

A moral normative statement.  Why shouldn't there be..and who's escaping?   It's this very same reason that christians imagine a divine judge with authority over redemption.  He catches the ones we don't...there is no escape, and there shouldn't be.

Rhythm what are your thoughts on as to why some people suffer and some don't? Why are some born into poverty and and some in mansions. Who or what decides that as none of us ask anyone to be brought into this world.As we develop, All of us like to have a happy and prosperous life.

The distribution of resources on this planet (and the populations leveraging them) are now and have always been uneven.  The means available to reduce, minimize, or nullify suffering are, like the resources upon which they depend, unevenly distributed....and, lastly, people's emotional response to their circumstances is as wide and varied as we are.  No one decided any of this, we all make do with what we have available in order to pursue our goals and...sadly, what we have available isn't always enough?

Or, you know...a magical moral normative force did it.........?

[miaharun]

Rhythm what are your thoughts on as to why some people suffer and some don't? Why are some born into poverty and and some in mansions. Who or what decides that as none of us ask anyone to be brought into this world.As we develop, All of us like to have a happy and prosperous life.

The distribution of resources on this planet (and the populations leveraging them) are now and have always been uneven.  The means available to reduce, minimize, or nullify suffering are, like the resources upon which they depend, unevenly distributed....and, lastly, people's emotional response to their circumstances is as wide and varied as we are.  No one decided any of this, we all make do with what we have available in order to pursue our goals and...sadly, what we have available isn't always enough?

Or, you know...a magical moral normative force did it.........?
[/quote]

Kudos to this! Very practical and informative. It is very close to what i believe in.

[The Grand Nudger]

So long as "very close" is wide enough to encompass previously undiscovered moral normative natural forces..sure.  This is, frankly, an example of your similarity /w christians moreso than any similarity /w me.  This, more than anything, is all I'm hoping to help you see.  Sin and forgiveness are to christians what karma is to buddhists.   Despite the differences in method, they both pursue the same end. I can't see that there's anything wrong with pursuing that end - though obviously I have my doubts as to the efficacy of either of your methods.

[miaharun]

How about a scenario like this,

A person or a group steals a container shipment inclusive of Mobile phones and sells them on the market to consumers.

A: If that person is a christian or muslim, He will ask god/imaginable to forgive him for this sin and probably will give a reason. After this session he is content that he is forgiven and moves on.

B: If that person is a buddhist he will know that what he did will bite him back someday or even the next life. Because he knows whats wrong cannot be justified that act might not have happened in the first place.

C: If that person is an atheist ? How will it happen.

[The Grand Nudger]

So long as "very close" is wide enough to encompass previously undiscovered moral normative natural forces..sure.  This is, frankly, an example of your similarity /w christians moreso than any similarity /w me.

I get what your saying Sir. I'm not here to troll or anything, im just a man who is looking out to find some answers. Hope i haven't offended anyone here.  However isn't what i believe in more towards nature and science.

Personally, I'd say no...but I don't see it as a spectrum.  Your magic isn't any closer to (or further from) nature or science than their magic. 

If say Karma doesn't govern these laws then what does.

If god doesn't govern these laws then what does? 

What makes you right if you don't believe in anything.  What makes you not do a bad act.

I guess I'm just not a bad guy, though...quixotically, I've been known to do atrocious things?  Does there need to be any other explanation?  Or maybe I don't think I'd make a very good rapist...no natural talent, and being a lazy defeatist - I decline to pursue that lifestyle decision?  

Say stealing. Some have it morally some don't. Rather than asking for forgiveness and once your content that your sins have been washed away and think " I think father will forgive me once more" and do another bad act.

I can't really speak to that because I don't believe in it.   Nor, frankly, do christians.  No christian believes that their forgiveness is predicate upon their contentedness.   All insist upon the sincerity of contrition.  Theft is a legal issue, btw, not a moral issue.  The morality of theft can be argued, the legality of theft is established regardless of those arguments.

[robvalue]

After doing something immoral, atheists will generally feel guilty, try to make it right, and stop doing whatever bad thing it is. Guilt is a very real thing, a product of evolution.

Of course, some atheists will just not care. There is a small argument to be made for using religion as a way to control such people into behaving properly through intangible threats or rewards; but I don't think it's worth sustaining religious myths for.

Stuff bites atheists back just fine

[miaharun]

[The Grand Nudger]

How about a scenario like this,

A person or a group steals a container shipment inclusive of Mobile phones and sells them on the market to consumers.

A: If that person is a christian or muslim, He will ask god/imaginable to forgive him for this sin and probably will give a reason. After this session he is content that he is forgiven and moves on.

B: If that person is a buddhist he will know that what he did will bite him back someday or even the next life. Because he knows whats wrong cannot be justified that act might not have happened in the first place.

C: If that person is an atheist ? How will it happen.

Sorry, missed this earlier.

A: I doubt that many christians would excuse theft, even personally, on the basis of their redemption....ala "I've got the golden ticket so it's all good".  

B: Would this be any more or less silly than the scenario given in A?  Guess what, people get away with shit.  I hope you aren't counting on karma to purify your soul of misdeeds, you might be in for a long wait.....

C: How would what happen?