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June 22, 2010 at 8:21 am (This post was last modified: June 22, 2010 at 8:29 am by KichigaiNeko.)
(June 22, 2010 at 7:21 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:
Quote:Sorry mo3taz...the fact remains that all here HAVE read the bible, Qu'ran, torah and a plethora of other traditional texts (Upanishads etc)
We have been very curious and have read extensively so as to make firm decisions as to our point of view on the topic. Please stop treating us as though we are ignorant little children....we out grew that crap eons ago.
until now i didn't see any member in this forums who have any information about the Quran but you always use claims from other people that is not based on the Quran or from websites trying to mislead people by telling them wrong information. am not treating anyone as an ignorant little child but we all can have wrong information or lack of knowledge in some areas and at the end we are all sharing our opinions and increasing our knowledge by reasoning with each other
My dear friend...other peoples information IS the Koran /Q'ran / Quran
Translation: (google Arabic)
صديقي العزيز ... غيرها من الشعوب المعلومات هو القرآن الكريم / Q'ran / القرآن الكريم
I am hoping that this does not translate to anything offensive but I am certain that it will not translate to the above full of nuances and be grammatically correct....that is the hard part about english and anyone trying to master the language has my full sympathy.
Now....Yes I have read the Q'ran and just like the Bible and the Torah quickly dismissed it. It is not a book to base ones life on and quite frankly I found that reading of the life of the Buddha much more useful as a guide to how best live my life and how to treat my fellow creatures on this rock.
Yes we are exchanging our ideas and from this hopefully both you and I will firm our belief systems, modify them as necessary and move forward to better our own lives...and by extension the lives of those around us.
(June 22, 2010 at 7:21 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:
Quote:The "Abrahamic God" of 'The Torah', 'The Q'ran' and 'The Bible' are considered one in the same. The name may be changed but the deity is the same desert god worshiped by the Semitic peoples of the Middle Eastern countries as opposed to deities worshiped by say: the Scandinavian countries.
the name is not is not different in the 3 religions but some non Muslims that don't know Arabic don't know that Arab Christians and Jews say Allah as a translation for God and you can find it in the Arabic scriptures(old and new testament)
if you consider that god is the same in the 3 religions you will be judging Islam by what others add to their religion or scriptures (they end up imagining that god is like human being) but in fact the Quran is the preserved word of god(that contains the original of the torah and the bible) that's why there is a lot of different verses in the Quran saying to the Jews and the Christians to not say about God what they don't know and not to write the book by their hands and claim that this is from god
"A rose by any other name will still need shit to grow." Call your desert god 'Allah', 'Yahweh' or 'Jesus the sum of god' it is all the same....I am amazed that an intelligent person such as yourself would think otherwise....
Were not the sons of Abraham Ishmael and Israel?? They were brothers...the rest is biblical history.
(June 22, 2010 at 7:21 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:
Quote:The accusations against the Q'ran are as valid as those posited against the Torah and the Bible....
What you fail to comprehend is that you have "infidel" = "outsiders" looking at this body of work and criticising it for what it is and what it says. By no means to say that atheists are taking the moral 'High Ground' BUT one cannot be blamed in the 21st Century to look at such works as out dated and irrelevant to today's tribalism. In other words...your 'holy text' is out of date.
Your Q'ran, along with any other 'sacred text' is woefully out of date and only survives as a curiosity and support to the fundamental principle that humans are STILL busy with Tribalism and not ready for anything more...let alone this 'kingdom of heaven' that the books bleat about.
i hope that your claims are based on verses from the Quran and you are not accusing Islam by what you read in the bible or the torah and if your answer is yes i hope you can get me your evidence from the Quran
Quote:I would still like to know which language is your mother tongue so I can show you how ridiculous translators are....
my mother tongue is Arabic and am not using translators
But which dialect?? There are no captial letters or punctuation marks in Arabic are there??
(June 22, 2010 at 7:21 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:
Quote:And no ...you will never have me open a thread on the Q’ran as I do not think it is a book worthy of attention.
if you are searching for the truth any book that claims its from god is worthy of attention and not only reading but also deep studying
Quote:Why not.. You should remember that to someone like me, the concept of God is absolutely no different from the concept of Zeus, Odin, Apollo, the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, Jesus, Moses, etc. etc. and they all have exactly the same chance of existing, i.e. practically zero
So why defend a book that is out of date and mostly setup to support a tribal nomadic economy of at least 1700 years ago??
The world of the Middle East is no more (sad as I am to say that) the world has moved on and 'the apocalypse' for the Middle East has come alot sooner (probably because it was the last religion to come onto the world stage) than the West...don't stress we will get there, if not already firmly on our way...but for now I would no sooner advise that you put your faith in a sky daddy to save your arse than I would advise my own children to keep believing in Santa Claus as a reality.
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
Quote:Not to mention that there is no god. Just because some crazy (or lying) guy came out of a cave and said god talked to him, doesn't make any of it true.
you can convince yourself of that and believe it without a reason but if you are really seeking the truth and want to know if there is god or not you have to study the scriptures and use logic and reasons to get an answer
I have plenty of reason not to believe the claims that god(s) exist. What I don't have is one single compelling reason to believe that one does. A book claiming one does (regardless of which book) is anything but convincing. Maybe you should study science and the nature of reality, use logic and reason to get an answer that isn't "It's magic!"
It is just another book written by men to control others.
give me your reasons and evidence for this
It is all in your sacred book mo3taz...haven't you gotten to that bit yet??
Like I said WE HAVE!
(June 22, 2010 at 8:07 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:
Quote:Not to mention that there is no god. Just because some crazy (or lying) guy came out of a cave and said god talked to him, doesn't make any of it true.
you can convince yourself of that and believe it without a reason but if you are really seeking the truth and want to know if there is god or not you have to study the scriptures and use logic and reasons to get an answer
That is the whole point mo3taz...your book has no reasoning other than some crazy desert nomad crawling out of a cave and inflicting his idea of "sanity" on his local tribe.... sorry mate but Muhammad is no better than any other person with some whizz bang idea to make money and convince people that he is a wonderful person and should be voted in as president/ royalty/ demigod/ prophet.
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
June 22, 2010 at 9:26 am (This post was last modified: June 22, 2010 at 9:37 am by mo3taz3nbar.)
Quote:My dear friend...other peoples information IS the Koran /Q'ran / Quran
Translation: (google Arabic)
صديقي العزيز ... غيرها من الشعوب المعلومات هو القرآن الكريم / Q'ran / القرآن الكريم
I am hoping that this does not translate to anything offensive but I am certain that it will not translate to the above full of nuances and be grammatically correct....that is the hard part about english and anyone trying to master the language has my full sympathy.
lool i hope my english doesnt sound like what you wrote in arabic.am trying to make my language better but i think i will try harder
Quote:Call your desert god 'Allah', 'Yahweh' or 'Jesus the sum of god' it is all the same....I am amazed that an intelligent person such as yourself would think otherwise....
i think there is a misunderstanding here what i meant is that there is a great difference in the concept of god itself if you find that god is agressive and bloody in the torah that is because the people did this. they added their imagination to the torah so if you find this concept of god doesnt make sense you cant refuse other religions because of what the jews said about god as there is other religions that will agree with you that this is not from god that is only what some people says.as it will always reflect the mind and the culture of the people in their time and that is not the case in the Quran
Quote:So why defend a book that is out of date and mostly setup to support a tribal nomadic economy of at least 1700 years ago??
its not out of date at all it contains social,economical,political,......etc rules that if used today will solve a lot of problems in the world.that needs a really deep study from you and i think its not the right place to start if you are willing to do some studying(as it will need a lot of effort) so i will just give you an example: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...04434.html
Quote:The world of the Middle East is no more (sad as I am to say that) the world has moved on and 'the apocalypse' for the Middle East has come alot sooner (probably because it was the last religion to come onto the world stage) than the West...don't stress we will get there, if not already firmly on our way...
the apocalypse you are talking about in my opinion is happening because most rulers in the middle east are not following islamic rules and regarding non islamic regions the apocalypse is the result of human errors in putting rules which i think cant be perfect and will always end with a crysis
Quote:What I don't have is one single compelling reason to believe that one does.
and you will never find it unless you start giving some time to study diffirent scriptures.where do you expect to find reasons for you to believe?
Quote:Maybe you should study science and the nature of reality, use logic and reason to get an answer that isn't "It's magic!"
am using logic and reason to get answers that is what am doing from my first thread in this forums. and science is not contradicting with religion unless there is scientific facts contradicting with what is said in a religious book and i see that it is impossible to avoid these contradictions if the book is written by men
June 22, 2010 at 11:46 am (This post was last modified: June 22, 2010 at 11:48 am by annatar.)
well i was born in muslim family. and i studied islam for a long time.
and i can list so many reason why we shouldn't believe islam. Quran contains so many conflicts. and it is obvious that writen by a human.
for instance, its also my favorite verse(bakara 180.) about heritage sharing. there is a mathematical error which wouldn't be done by today's elemantry student. (you know mathematic doesn't lie you can check it. ) If you want scientific mistakes you can check (tarık 7.) god doesnt know where sperm comes from.
(there are several mistake which i can reveal if you want..)
another huge reason is, it contains violence and terrifying punishments for crimes such as stealing or adultery. kill infidels wherever you find them!?!? thats cold..
And historically you can follow all stories in quran. some are taken from pagan beliefs and some are judaism. well.. most are from judaism
Actually allah himself is a pagan god and this can be easily proved by the way.
Muhammad's father's name was Abdullah and it means servant of allah. naturally muhammad's father cant be aware of his son's religion for he is dead before mohammad born. So allah is just another pagan god. allah was a common god among arab people before islam rise.
(June 22, 2010 at 11:46 am)annatar Wrote: well i was born in muslim family. and i studied islam for a long time.
and i can list so many reason why we shouldn't believe islam. Quran contains so many conflicts. and it is obvious that writen by a human.
for instance, its also my favorite verse(bakara 180.) about heritage sharing. there is a mathematical error which wouldn't be done by today's elemantry student. (you know mathematic doesn't lie you can check it. ) If you want scientific mistakes you can check (tarık 7.) god doesnt know where sperm comes from.
(there are several mistake which i can reveal if you want..)
another huge reason is, it contains violence and terrifying punishments for crimes such as stealing or adultery. kill infidels wherever you find them!?!? thats cold..
And historically you can follow all stories in quran. some are taken from pagan beliefs and some are judaism. well.. most are from judaism
Actually allah himself is a pagan god and this can be easily proved by the way.
Muhammad's father's name was Abdullah and it means servant of allah. naturally muhammad's father cant be aware of his son's religion for he is dead before mohammad born. So allah is just another pagan god. allah was a common god among arab people before islam rise.
(June 22, 2010 at 2:13 pm)Ashendant Wrote: Are you saying that muhammad was also unoriginal?
what I'm saying is, Muhammed took something which was already exist, compiled it with some other beliefs and served it as a new meal.. Just like Jesus did before him or Muses did before Jesus. all are connected you see. Think why all single-god religions emerged from that area..They affected from each other. you also may know that arab people and jewish people are relatives.(ironic isn't it.)
