Women's clothes?

[The Valkyrie]

Would you like to provide some instances where feminists have made an impact on helping these women overseas? I'd be very glad if you could provide some sources. It'd surely change some of my views.

Canadian Women for Women in Afghanistan

Women Helping Women in Asia

Women for Women in Africa

Stop Female Genital Mutilation Now

[/url]Canadian Grannies Helping African Grannies

Daughters of Eve - Stop FGM

[url=http://www.dofeve.org/stopping-fgm.html]
That's the tip of the iceberg.

[GrandizerII]

And for the record, "feminist" is a term that I am reluctant to apply to myself.

You speak not much different from a feminist tbh. Not sure why the feeling of shame of being associated with feminism. Even a lot of the radical ones aren't that bad when one sees what they actually believe in.

[Catholic_Lady]

I for one can't stand radical feminists.

[The Valkyrie]

I for one can't stand radical feminists.

Nor I.

There's a difference between wanting equality and thinking you're superior to men.

[popsthebuilder]

The point is that the crime is that of opportunity, and I get that. But to claim that a criminal would equally pick a modest woman(that wouldn't even be in that situation) and a promiscuous woman regardless of sexuality, if all other controls were the same is nonsense to me.

If dress is an expression, and the expression put forth by that dress(among other things) is that of sexuality, then a sexual predator(opportunistic or not) will obviously be attracted to it.

You will not change my mind on this. I agree with your points, but they are not the only factors involved.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

Pops,

Time and again, rape treatment experts tell us that 90% of rapes are someone the victim knows.

That rape is almost always about power, and rarely about sex.

Listen,

I will readily admit that there are exceptions to this:

It usually in SITUATIONS that are ALREADY SEXUAL IN NATURE,
where it's not much of a jump, for a rapist to force sex to occur.

For example, I was date-raped when I was 15, by my then-boyfriend.
It was my first time, I was a virgin,
and we were fooling around.

But I only wanted to go so far, and told him to stop,
...and he didn't.

I believe THAT was about sex....not power.

He was just a spoiled, entitled, juvenile, horny young man,
who never liked being told 'no'
...especially he was so close to getting what he wanted.

however,

While I have no doubt whatsoever that prostitutes probably end up getting raped far more than the average woman,
I don't think it is because their situation is primarily sexual in nature,
I think it is because their situation is primarily highly-vulnerable to exploitation.

And yes, a provocatively dressed woman will undoubtedly come in for more sexual harassment,
walking down a busy street, in the middle of the day,
than a demurely-dressed one,

so it only stands to reason that if you changed the surroundings to a dark alley at night,
she might be putting herself at an even greater risk;

HOWEVER,

I have been sexually-harassed more times in my life than I can count,
and I'm not a provocative dresser AT ALL.

And MANY, MANY women will tell you the same thing.

And it was often at work, or school,
where harassment is officially against the rules,
and where I know my assailant

...not some dark alley.

I've been followed, by strangers, in public, more than once in my life,
and again, I wasn't provocatively-dressed.

And it's not like I'm a playboy centerfold, or a supermodel or anything;
I'm a very average woman.  I'm not even big-chested.
I don't wear tight clothes, heels, or makeup.

This raises the question:

If a man wants to rape, why would he put himself at risk,
by doing it in a situation where is he more likely to be caught or named?

The answer is twofold:

1.  Rapists are messed-up people

2.  Because it is about the vulnerability of the victim, and the power of the assailant.

Also:

The men who make a big show of catcalling, wolf-whistling
or otherwise harassing a provocatively-dressed woman on the street,
are usually either hoping she will notice them,
or they're just showing off for their stupid friends.

Whereas a would-be rapist of serious intent,
unless he is a completely psychotic, raving lunatic,
is less likely to make a spectacle of himself in public.

And a demurely-dressed, unsuspecting, lone teenager in a hoodie and jeans,
who just wants to mind their own business and doesn't go looking for trouble,
who gets off the bus and quickly walks home from work at night,
is a far more palatable target to a would-be rapist,
because they're more likely to freeze in fear,

than a confident, worldly woman who is deliberately putting it out there,
and is prepared for whatever reaction it may generate,
and is more likely to fight back.
She's obviously the kind of person who has no problem being the centre of attention,
so I doubt she would hesitate to put up a fight, if she had to.

Regardless of dress, whether provocative or demure,
if a woman gets herself blind-drunk,
or gets lost, alone, in a strange place, late at night,
then yes, she is taking a risk.

Let's say you have a party, and a bunch of teenagers who get wasted.

Two girls, one dressed provocatively, and the other not, both pass out in separate bedrooms.

I say there is just as much likelihood that the the demurely-dressed one will be raped,
as the provocatively-dressed one

....maybe even more, if the demure one is introspective by nature,
and the provocatively-dressed one is assertive.

The rapist will target the one least likely to fight back.

I agree with what you're saying.

The issue your missing is that you're scenario lacks any real context. A girl who is modest in nature(resulting in modesty through dress) would not be drunk, passed out at a party.

What If the two aren't passed out but just drunk?

Are you saying the one "putting it out there" is equally at risk as the one still not even insinuating a sexual nature?

People are focusing on the clothing as if it is separate from the nature of the people wearing them. The whole promiscuous way of life that this generation seems to idolize is very damaging. It causes tons of significant problems on many levels. But instead of seeing these problems, and owning them, allowing for change for better, people just want to greedily justify their own personal behavior as their own business. But when the topics at hand bleed off into actually damaging the potential of children it indeed will effect all and should be considered the business of all. I'm not talking about clothes or rape, but the general greedy nature of society.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

[drfuzzy]

And for the record, "feminist" is a term that I am reluctant to apply to myself.

Same here.

When women say they are a "feminist", they often get negative responses from males.  "Woman-hater!"  "Dyke!"  "Lesbian!"
Examples of women who want to restrict and oppress men (the way females have been oppressed for millennia) will be cited as examples of what they surely don't want to be. Even the assertions of heterosexual, feminine women that "feminist" only means someone who wants gender equality will usually fall on unaccepting ears.

I believe that this is because mainstream media still celebrates maleness and - - - just consider all of the advertising that uses scantily clad women, for a mild and minor example - - still wants to keep women as controllable objects.  Therefore, in my humble opinion, females of all stripes need to keep speaking up for gender equality.  Equal pay for equal work/skill - we still don't have it.  So my friends, I don't understand why ALL women aren't "feminist".  (Not feminazi, now, just feminist!     )   Why SHOULDN'T I call myself a feminist?  I'm an educated, professional woman who has endured a lot of crap -- simply because I was female.

[GrandizerII]

I for one can't stand radical feminists.

Can't stand what exactly about them? What is a radical feminist anyway if we think about it? One who speaks "too loud" and is "annoying and bitchy"? Or is it one with extreme views (such as the one Beccs mentioned as an example) even though they may be polite in their demeanor?

I have no issue with loud feminists as long as they're all about equality.

[popsthebuilder]

Equal pay for equal work output should definitely be implemented everywhere.

People in general would have to observe humility or modesty in order to stop advertising from promoting women dressed seductively.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

[Catholic_Lady]

I for one can't stand radical feminists.

Nor I.

There's a difference between wanting equality and thinking you're superior to men.

Yep. That, and I think it just makes women come off like whiny, entitled brats. Which kinda defeats the whole purpose in the first place. As radicalism usually does.

[The Valkyrie]

Equal pay for equal work output should definitely be implemented everywhere.

People in general would have to observe humility or modesty in order to stop advertising from promoting women dressed seductively.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

On average, I get paid more than my male colleagues at the same level as myself.  That's because I do extra work when required, cover for them on shifts and because I'm also qualified in emergency medicine.

On the other.  I wear what I want, when I want outside of work.  If people have a problem with that then it's just that: their problem.