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If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
RE: If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
(February 3, 2016 at 1:15 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(February 3, 2016 at 11:13 am)robvalue Wrote: Allah, and anyone else, can do whatever they want to me after I die. I don't care. Why? Because I'll be dead.

Make me into a plant pot, whatever you like.

Yep, I agree, threaten me with Allah or Jesus or Apollo, or Darth Vader, fiction is still fiction. I won't care because I will be dead and it will feel exactly the same as it did before I was born. I am not that selfish as to think the universe will always need me. It did fine without me before I was born.

To add to that, somehow theists stupidly get it in their head, that because I accept my finite existence somehow that means I am incapable of valuing my life as it is. I want my ride to go on as long as my body holds out, but the ride still ends no matter what I personally want. 

You go to a movie knowing it will end. You read a book knowing it has a last page. You get another pet after one dies. You also live on after your friends and or a family member dies. My mom gave me a quote I have in my car still today, "Don't cry because it is over, smile because it happened".

Now of course it is ok to mourn, we wouldnt be humans if we didn't feel loss or pain. But to ignore reality is not only silly, but when it gets to a paranoid and superstitious level, that bad logic can lead an individual to commit violent acts or even suicide. Religion unfortunately sets people up to value fiction instead of valuing reality. 

I think it is simply better logic and more healthy mentally to accept the ride ends and enjoy the time you have while you are here. We are not emotionless robots. We wont eat your babies or barbecue your kittens. The only difference between a believer and an atheist, is we simply don't assign life to old books or magic. Outside that, our lives are just the same.
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RE: If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
(February 3, 2016 at 12:06 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:
(February 2, 2016 at 8:32 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote: Like u say get in line take a number, we have to go through this line or the other. The decision is up to us but the path or line does lead to an eternal lasting place
So how large will your pearl be?
The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said that the width of the pavilions (tents)are hollowed pearls which is the width of 60 miles. But as we say in Islam, Allahu'allam God knows best

(February 3, 2016 at 12:03 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(February 2, 2016 at 8:32 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote: Like u say get in line take a number, we have to go through this line or the other. The decision is up to us but the path or line does lead to an eternal lasting place

No it does not lead to a fictional afterlife. That is utter crap. Do you feel that a cockroach has an afterlife?  No? Now again, not just you pull this bad logic, Hindus and Buddhist would call that afterlife "reincarnation". Still a stupid gap answer that humans invent to avoid our finite existence.

Our planet is 4 billion years old. There were no god claims or religions 4 billion years ago. Our universe is 14 billion years old. The universe contains 100s of billions of galaxies. Humans OF ALL RELIGIONS are stupid to think this one tiny dot, in a hostile universe gives one shit about the myths or sky heros humans invent for false comfort.

NOW, what you don't get, which most believers don't, is that while reality has bad things in it, it also has good things in it. There is no need to gap fill with old books and fictional beings. Not yours, not any.

Nothing bad will happen to you if you give up on the horrible idea of a god. The good news is that there is no cosmic dictator who will get revenge on you if you realize he is not real. And again, we make the same arguments to Jews and Christians and Hindus and Buddhists ect ect ect ect.

It was understandable back then when humans didn't know any better that they wrote those things and started those clubs. But we have a much better understanding scientifically of what is really going on. That REAL knowledge has helped humans progress and problem solve with things like medicine and the computer you type your responses on.

WE PROMISE there is no hell for you to burn in if you figure out what we have. You can still live a productive life and be a good person and value the ride called life. We still find good in life, we still have emotions, we still feel pain, but we simply do not assign good or bad to magic.
Now I respect ur statement to a point. But I have a question for u. How do u know how old our universe is? How do u know how old our Earth is ? I guarantee that u, nor any other person living today weren't around to witness the creation of the universe. My point being u say we need facts but that is based on a theory that humans have put together. How does any human know exactly how many years ago the dinosaurs lived, or when the Earth was created? So how is what u say about these time period lengths to an exact number of years without proof different from what I say about the existence of the Almighty God Allah who created it? It's all based upon belief in that matter, because I guarantee no human lived to see these time periods, so no man knows exactly how long ago they actually were. Do u see what I'm saying?
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RE: If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
How do I know? SCIENCE,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_mic...background

Now don't follow up with ambiguous quotes from an old book of myth. Christians and Jews and Hindus also stupidly try to retrofit science backwards in time to prop up myths.

You said you could not prove your god now. NOW AGAIN, that should tell you that he doesn't exist, and you like every other religion, merely like the idea of a super hero.

Scientific method is not a religion, it does not prop up ANY religion. Scientific method is why we know how old the universe is, not the Quran, not the Bible not Buddha or the Hindu Vedas.........

Take your beer goggles off, take that needless self inflected hand out of your puppet back, and think for yourself. It really will be ok if you stop believing in a god. It is not a conspiracy on our part. We are not out to get you.

Scientific method is how we know how old the universe is. NOT RELIGION, NOT YOURS NOT ANY.
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RE: If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
(February 3, 2016 at 11:11 am)Constable Dorfl Wrote:
(February 2, 2016 at 6:18 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote: No my parents begot me, I, like everything else in the entire universe was created by Allah

Well like it is said my friend. I'm not able to change ur view of religion nor are u able to change mine. Like u saidwe have our rights and reasons to believe what we do, obviously viewed as illogical coming from each opposite party, but it is each of our choice. So I hope I haven't offended u in anyway, sharing my beliefs I'm kinda new to this website. If I have offended u n any way I apologize, I hope u can forgive me, that was not my intention at all. So I can say to u my friend even though we go in opposite directions on our view of life, I wish u the best. ?

If u have the time and patience I would like to share with u some of the what we as Muslims call miracles of the Qur'an. Now take it, because I have debated and responded to many posts I can't promise u that I haven't sent any of these to u already. But what I want to show u in them is how they stood out to me and opened my eyes and heart by proving factual information as verified to this day. So would u be up to taking a look at these my friend?

As I've already demonstrated conclusively, there are no miracles in th quran (you did give me bullshit about it supposedly predicting the atomic number of iron, something I tore to shreds twice), just like there are none in the bible, the torah, the bhagavad ghita, the i ching or any other holy book. You've been lied to all your life about your religuon, and its not my doing. Deal with it.
It's all good partner. I just thought I'd make the offer to show u some things that stand out. In the matter of the atomic number of iron. I'm not sure if it was u or someone else on this site I showed it to, but whoever it was said the Qur'an simply copied the information about iron and its atomic number. So I pose a question that has yet to be answered. How does the Qur'an copy something when the Qur'an was revealed in the 7th century and the thing that is said it is copying from was not revealed until the 20th century, or 1300 years later? So in a nutshell. The Qur'an came first over 1300 years before mankind came up with the information about the atomic number. So my point being just because man didn't know about it then doesn't mean it didn't exist. For example the planet Venus has always taken 243 days to revolve around the sun, and on a 177 degree angle. Now, people didn't know this in the 7th century, but it was still happening. And guess, what it is listed in the Qur'an as one of the miracles. Just as ch.16 is the honeybee in the Qur'an. People of the 7th century didn't know honeybees have 16 chromosomes. But they do now just as they did in the 7th century. Point being that a higher being who knew these things, because He created them that way, made it possible for us as humans today with our science and technology that He has blessed us with, to verify and confirm as true, what people had absolutely no knowledge of in the 7th century. This showing the Qur'an and all of the knowledge and information did not come from a human being but from God Almighty Allah alone.
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RE: If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
I think you do not understand that Science is about data, about the most precise and accurate, not perfect.

Just like we can know the atmosphere conditions of a hurricane, but we cant tell you the exact number of raindrops that it will produce. The CONDITIONS are what matter not an exact date. 14 billion as science says it is is proven, not to an exact day but a ballpark. WE DO know the age and that in scientific terms is extremely accurate.

Your stupid logic is just like when a layperson watches a weatherman on the news and hears "scattered thunderstorms" but doesn't see rain all day, FORGETTING the area they are talking about is bigger than just what is outside their window.

Religion stupidly teaches you to seek a utopia, and that is why you cant understand how scientific method works in reality. It's not about seeking a utopia like religion, it is about getting the best and most accurate data we can.
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RE: If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
You probably don't know that the sun from our point of view is 8 minutes in the past. That is the amount of time it takes one ray of light to travel to earth.

So when you say we don't know the age of the universe, that is flat out bullshit. We have the tools in all kinds of telescopes to catch light that has traveled for billions of years. So the further away it has traveled, the older our universe gets, and that stopping point is 14 billion years, give or take.
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RE: If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
Do you even know that there is NOT one single atom in you now that was around when you were a sperm and egg? Not one single atom you have in you today, was in you at that time. Your body is constantly replacing all the atoms in you.

That to me is amazing to think about without inserting the myths written by people who didn't know any better.

The known red giant stars we have documented in science make our sun look like a pea. If you could pluck our sun out and put the biggest known red giant in it's place, the surface of that sun would extend past the orbit of Saturn. You do know a star is a sun right?

AGAIN, that too is much more amazing to me to think about than any old book of myth.
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RE: If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
(February 3, 2016 at 4:25 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote:
(February 3, 2016 at 11:11 am)Constable Dorfl Wrote: As I've already demonstrated conclusively, there are no miracles in th quran (you did give me bullshit about it supposedly predicting the atomic number of iron, something I tore to shreds twice), just like there are none in the bible, the torah, the bhagavad ghita, the i ching or any other holy book. You've been lied to all your life about your religuon, and its not my doing. Deal with it.
It's all good partner. I just thought I'd make the offer to show u some things that stand out. In the matter of the atomic number of iron. I'm not sure if it was u or someone else on this site I showed it to, but whoever it was said the Qur'an simply copied the information about iron and its atomic number. So I pose a question that has yet to be answered. How does the Qur'an copy something when the Qur'an was revealed in the 7th century and the thing that is said it is copying from was not revealed until the 20th century, or 1300 years later? So in a nutshell. The Qur'an came first over 1300 years before mankind came up with the information about the atomic number. So my point being just because man didn't know about it then doesn't mean it didn't exist. For example the planet Venus has always taken 243 days to revolve around the sun, and on a 177 degree angle. Now, people didn't know this in the 7th century, but it was still happening. And guess, what it is listed in the Qur'an as one of the miracles. Just as ch.16 is the honeybee in the Qur'an. People of the 7th century didn't know honeybees have 16 chromosomes. But they do now just as they did in the 7th century. Point being that a higher being who knew these things, because He created them that way, made it possible for us as humans today with our science and technology that He has blessed us with, to verify and confirm as true, what people had absolutely no knowledge of in the 7th century. This showing the Qur'an and all of the knowledge and information did not come from a human being but from God Almighty Allah alone.

No you still haven't shown a single scientific prediction in the quran. What you have done is shown a number of futile, idiotic attempts by a number of clerics to retrofit science into their holy book after proper use of the scientific method discovered them. If what you show were scientific facts in the quran, you'd be able to show, 10th-13th century scholars praising allah for revealing those truths. The scholars are deafening in their silence.

Also Venus hasn't always orbited in the same way it does now, for example before and during the early solar system there was no Venus to do the orbiting. Also over long periods, the solar system is a chaotic system, meaning we cannot predict with accuracy wht it will be doing long into the future, nor what it did long ago.
The great appear great because we are on our knees. Let us rise!
Big James
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RE: If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
(February 3, 2016 at 5:36 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote:
(February 3, 2016 at 4:25 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote: It's all good partner. I just thought I'd make the offer to show u some things that stand out. In the matter of the atomic number of iron. I'm not sure if it was u or someone else on this site I showed it to, but whoever it was said the Qur'an simply copied the information about iron and its atomic number. So I pose a question that has yet to be answered. How does the Qur'an copy something when the Qur'an was revealed in the 7th century and the thing that is said it is copying from was not revealed until the 20th century, or 1300 years later? So in a nutshell. The Qur'an came first over 1300 years before mankind came up with the information about the atomic number. So my point being just because man didn't know about it then doesn't mean it didn't exist. For example the planet Venus has always taken 243 days to revolve around the sun, and on a 177 degree angle. Now, people didn't know this in the 7th century, but it was still happening. And guess, what it is listed in the Qur'an as one of the miracles. Just as ch.16 is the honeybee in the Qur'an. People of the 7th century didn't know honeybees have 16 chromosomes. But they do now just as they did in the 7th century. Point being that a higher being who knew these things, because He created them that way, made it possible for us as humans today with our science and technology that He has blessed us with, to verify and confirm as true, what people had absolutely no knowledge of in the 7th century. This showing the Qur'an and all of the knowledge and information did not come from a human being but from God Almighty Allah alone.

No you still haven't shown a single scientific prediction in the quran. What you have done is shown a number of futile, idiotic attempts by a number of clerics to retrofit science into their holy book after proper use of the scientific method discovered them. If what you show were scientific facts in the quran, you'd be able to show, 10th-13th century scholars praising allah for revealing those truths. The scholars are deafening in their silence.

Also Venus hasn't always orbited in the same way it does now, for example before and during the early solar system there was no Venus to do the orbiting. Also over long periods, the solar system is a chaotic system, meaning we cannot predict with accuracy wht it will be doing long into the future, nor what it did long ago.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I understand what you are saying, but be careful with your examples because they take that to mean "SEE SEE SEE, you just said science is predictive, but now you admit you don't know".

You have to talk about science in terms of data. You have to take in terms of not "either/or" which is what theism teaches them. You have to talk in terms of CONDITIONS and BOTH, chaos and order overlapping depending on POINT OF VIEW. 

Like I said before, we know the conditions that cause a hurricane. Just like we know the conditions now that lead to the formation if Venus. When they first noticed Venus they were not wrong about it existing, they simply had to correct and update the data, it still does not negate the tools they used for the initial discovery.

The chaos of the universe does not negate the order in it. We know the CONDITIONS that lead to certain events just like we say "scattered thunderstorm" is still accurate in a weather forecast.

It's just like the difference between classical Newtonian physics vs Quantum physics. Newtonian physics is still used today to make things, but it simply isn't useful at the quantum level. Just like a wooden horse buggy wheel is still a wheel, but you couldn't apply it to a modern Lamborghini.

But you are absolutely right, that the Quran is not a science text book. Neither is the Bible or Vedas. When any religion starts trying to square science with their books of myth, they are working backwords after the fact. Those books do not have predictive powers like science does.
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RE: If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
(February 3, 2016 at 4:25 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote: Just as ch.16 is the honeybee in the Qur'an. People of the 7th century didn't know honeybees have 16 chromosomes. But they do now just as they did in the 7th century.

a. They didn't know then as we do now, about the chromosomes; b. it's only half true; the drones only have 16 chromosomes, but females, workers and the queen of each colony, have a full 32.

(http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/principles.html)
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