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If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
RE: If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
EVOLUTION is why our species evolved to make discoveries. Just like our primate cousins Chimps learned to use sticks to get at their food source. It is also why a dog can learn to sit and and stay. Other species make observations and make decisions based on their observations. Religion is completely superfluous to discovery. Making a discovery only means you made a discovery, it does not make the god claim any god claim real.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knp6HCQrjFc
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RE: If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
(February 3, 2016 at 7:10 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:
(February 3, 2016 at 4:25 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote: Just as ch.16 is the honeybee in the Qur'an. People of the 7th century didn't know honeybees have 16 chromosomes. But they do now just as they did in the 7th century.

a.  They didn't know then  as we do now, about the chromosomes; b. it's only half true; the drones only have 16 chromosomes, but females, workers and the queen of each colony, have a full 32.

(http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/principles.html)
So u agree there is truth in this then?

(February 3, 2016 at 5:36 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote:
(February 3, 2016 at 4:25 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote: It's all good partner. I just thought I'd make the offer to show u some things that stand out. In the matter of the atomic number of iron. I'm not sure if it was u or someone else on this site I showed it to, but whoever it was said the Qur'an simply copied the information about iron and its atomic number. So I pose a question that has yet to be answered. How does the Qur'an copy something when the Qur'an was revealed in the 7th century and the thing that is said it is copying from was not revealed until the 20th century, or 1300 years later? So in a nutshell. The Qur'an came first over 1300 years before mankind came up with the information about the atomic number. So my point being just because man didn't know about it then doesn't mean it didn't exist. For example the planet Venus has always taken 243 days to revolve around the sun, and on a 177 degree angle. Now, people didn't know this in the 7th century, but it was still happening. And guess, what it is listed in the Qur'an as one of the miracles. Just as ch.16 is the honeybee in the Qur'an. People of the 7th century didn't know honeybees have 16 chromosomes. But they do now just as they did in the 7th century. Point being that a higher being who knew these things, because He created them that way, made it possible for us as humans today with our science and technology that He has blessed us with, to verify and confirm as true, what people had absolutely no knowledge of in the 7th century. This showing the Qur'an and all of the knowledge and information did not come from a human being but from God Almighty Allah alone.

No you still haven't shown a single scientific prediction in the quran. What you have done is shown a number of futile, idiotic attempts by a number of clerics to retrofit science into their holy book after proper use of the scientific method discovered them. If what you show were scientific facts in the quran, you'd be able to show, 10th-13th century scholars praising allah for revealing those truths. The scholars are deafening in their silence.

Also Venus hasn't always orbited in the same way it does now, for example before and during the early solar system there was no Venus to do the orbiting. Also over long periods, the solar system is a chaotic system, meaning we cannot predict with accuracy wht it will be doing long into the future, nor what it did long ago.
Well is it possible that from the time of the 7th century when it was first listed in the Qur'an, that Venus was following the same pattern as it is today?
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RE: If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
(February 3, 2016 at 7:56 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote:
(February 3, 2016 at 7:10 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: a.  They didn't know then  as we do now, about the chromosomes; b. it's only half true; the drones only have 16 chromosomes, but females, workers and the queen of each colony, have a full 32.

(http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/principles.html)
So u agree there is truth in this then?

Facepalm
It's a figure of speech.  Don't get your jimmies rustled.  No I don't find it miraculous or even true.
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RE: If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
(February 3, 2016 at 7:56 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote:
(February 3, 2016 at 7:10 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: a.  They didn't know then  as we do now, about the chromosomes; b. it's only half true; the drones only have 16 chromosomes, but females, workers and the queen of each colony, have a full 32.

(http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/principles.html)
So u agree there is truth in this then?

(February 3, 2016 at 5:36 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote: No you still haven't shown a single scientific prediction in the quran. What you have done is shown a number of futile, idiotic attempts by a number of clerics to retrofit science into their holy book after proper use of the scientific method discovered them. If what you show were scientific facts in the quran, you'd be able to show, 10th-13th century scholars praising allah for revealing those truths. The scholars are deafening in their silence.

Also Venus hasn't always orbited in the same way it does now, for example before and during the early solar system there was no Venus to do the orbiting. Also over long periods, the solar system is a chaotic system, meaning we cannot predict with accuracy wht it will be doing long into the future, nor what it did long ago.
Well is it possible that from the time of the 7th century when it was first listed in the Qur'an, that Venus was following the same pattern as it is today?

Not the way it works.

Humans ability to make discoveries has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with religion. Humans have been making discoveries throughout our species history worldwide and even independently. There is nothing in the Quran that demonstrates the slightest lick of modern scientific understanding. If the

You do not understand the difference between when a scientist uses numbers, and when a holy writing of ANY religion uses numbers. One is based on observation, which is due to scientific method. And there are the numbers used in holy writings to over conflate an idea to draw the reader in.

Newton had his own personal beliefs about his "god", but you are not a Christian. And while he got classical physics right, he also postulated "alchemy" for a while which was an idea that was dead wrong. But Newton was wise enough to give up on "alchemy" and even with that bad guess, he still was not making that to point to Christianity. And he was willing to scrap bad claims.

So when you point to the Quran you are not starting from a position of knowledge, you are fishing for excuses to cling to the past.

This is even the same bad logic fans of si fi use. I've seen fans of both Star Trek and the movie "Back to the future" claim to be inventors of the flat screen TV. That is just entertainment too. The reason flat screen TVs exist is because of REAL labs and REAL scientists. I've even gone as far as pointing out the GIANT  flat screen "tv" in the old Wizard Of Oz" movie. 

I don't like this bad logic even when fans  of a TV or Movie pull this.

The only place scientific method works is in REAL LABS. And since no holy book is a science textbook, they cannot be used like one. Holy books are NOT universal like scientific method is. 

Artificial breeding of animals and plants was everywhere in antiquity, not just in Islam. And mapping out the stars was done all over the world independently. and even back then, nobody had any real clue as to what they were doing scientifically. Again, no holy book or religion of antiquity can replace scientific method, NONE. Not yours, not any.

Sometimes our species pattern seeking will allow us to stumble across a truth, but when that happens it is not due to religion but our NATURAL curiosity.
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RE: If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
(February 3, 2016 at 8:00 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:
(February 3, 2016 at 7:56 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote: So u agree there is truth in this then?

Facepalm
It's a figure of speech.  Don't get your jimmies rustled.  No I don't find it miraculous or even true.
Well how about ch 57 of the Quran, a book revealed in the 7th century, Al-Hadyd "The Iron". the Arabic letters have numerical value. H=8 D=4 Y=10 D=4 add them all together they total 26. In the early 1900s a scientist came up with atomic numbers for elements. Fe or iron has the atomic number of 26. Furthermore if u add the article Al meaning The in Arabic A=1 L=30  Al-Hadyd or The Iron 31+26=57 which is the chapter number in the Qur'an. Also being 114 chapters 57 is exactly halfway through. If u cut the Earth in half the core is made of molten iron. Do u believe that? How about ch.54 The Moon. The word for moon is only used in this chapter only once in verse 1. If u count the remaining verses to the end of the Qur'an u get 1390. The year 1390 in the Islamic Hijra calendar is the same as 1969 of our Gregorian calendar. We all know in 1969 man first set foot on the moon. Do u believe that? How about this? There is no letter V in Arabic so they use a W to substitute. In the Qur'an 8:72 the letters appear in order WENUS. The next time these letters appear in that exact order is 11:3 and the final time is 17:7. Of course if V is where W is it spells Venus. More interesting is there are 243 verses between 8:72 and 11:3. Venus takes exactly 243 daysto revolve around the sun. It also rotates at a 177 degree angle which is where 17:7 comes ino play. Do u believe that? The list goes on. So my question to u is what human in the 7th century had knowledge of these things. They didn't proving they came from God who created them all
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RE: If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
(February 3, 2016 at 8:53 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote: How about ch.54 The Moon. The word for moon is only used in this chapter only once in verse 1. If u count the remaining verses to the end of the Qur'an u get 1390. The year 1390 in the Islamic Hijra calendar is the same as 1969 of our Gregorian calendar. We all know in 1969 man first set foot on the moon.

Why not count that first verse? Because then you wouldn't have that coincidence. See, that's arbitrarily choosing a number out of several options to make it fit. That's retrofitting, not prophetic.

Anyway, I already told you that this is nothing but numerology and therefore meaningless. It doesn't impress me.
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RE: If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
It won't impress anyone who doesn't already think the book is magic.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
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RE: If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
(February 3, 2016 at 4:25 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote: In the matter of the atomic number of iron. I'm not sure if it was u or someone else on this site I showed it to, but whoever it was said the Qur'an simply copied the information about iron and its atomic number. So I pose a question that has yet to be answered. How does the Qur'an copy something when the Qur'an was revealed in the 7th century and the thing that is said it is copying from was not revealed until the 20th century, or 1300 years later? So in a nutshell. The Qur'an came first over 1300 years before mankind came up with the information about the atomic number. So my point being just because man didn't know about it then doesn't mean it didn't exist. For example the planet Venus has always taken 243 days to revolve around the sun, and on a 177 degree angle. Now, people didn't know this in the 7th century, but it was still happening. And guess, what it is listed in the Qur'an as one of the miracles. Just as ch.16 is the honeybee in the Qur'an. People of the 7th century didn't know honeybees have 16 chromosomes. But they do now just as they did in the 7th century. Point being that a higher being who knew these things, because He created them that way, made it possible for us as humans today with our science and technology that He has blessed us with, to verify and confirm as true, what people had absolutely no knowledge of in the 7th century. This showing the Qur'an and all of the knowledge and information did not come from a human being but from God Almighty Allah alone.

Whoever told you that this is because the Qur'an copied the info about iron and its atomic number is obviously wrong, and you explained why satisfactorily. However, the Qur'an does not state that the atomic number of iron is 26. You and/or your fellow apologists are making stuff up to make it look like that's what the Qur'an says, using really silly numerological ways that are just based on made up nonsense. It looks to me like your fellow apologists just randomly chose a number for each letter to make it all work in their favor. That doesn't seem very honest.

This goes for the Venus and honeybee chromosome ones as well. So what if the Nahl sura is 16? It's just the number for the surah itself. It has nothing to do with chromosomes, lol. Otherwise, the Baqarah sura should have been number 60 instead of 2 ... and not all bees have a count of 16 chromosomes each.
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RE: If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
(February 4, 2016 at 4:16 am)Irrational Wrote:
(February 3, 2016 at 4:25 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote: In the matter of the atomic number of iron. I'm not sure if it was u or someone else on this site I showed it to, but whoever it was said the Qur'an simply copied the information about iron and its atomic number. So I pose a question that has yet to be answered. How does the Qur'an copy something when the Qur'an was revealed in the 7th century and the thing that is said it is copying from was not revealed until the 20th century, or 1300 years later? So in a nutshell. The Qur'an came first over 1300 years before mankind came up with the information about the atomic number. So my point being just because man didn't know about it then doesn't mean it didn't exist. For example the planet Venus has always taken 243 days to revolve around the sun, and on a 177 degree angle. Now, people didn't know this in the 7th century, but it was still happening. And guess, what it is listed in the Qur'an as one of the miracles. Just as ch.16 is the honeybee in the Qur'an. People of the 7th century didn't know honeybees have 16 chromosomes. But they do now just as they did in the 7th century. Point being that a higher being who knew these things, because He created them that way, made it possible for us as humans today with our science and technology that He has blessed us with, to verify and confirm as true, what people had absolutely no knowledge of in the 7th century. This showing the Qur'an and all of the knowledge and information did not come from a human being but from God Almighty Allah alone.

Whoever told you that this is because the Qur'an copied the info about iron and its atomic number is obviously wrong, and you explained why satisfactorily. However, the Qur'an does not state that the atomic number of iron is 26. You and/or your fellow apologists are making stuff up to make it look like that's what the Qur'an says, using really silly numerological ways that are just based on made up nonsense. It looks to me like your fellow apologists just randomly chose a number for each letter to make it all work in their favor. That doesn't seem very honest.

This goes for the Venus and honeybee chromosome ones as well. So what if the Nahl sura is 16? It's just the number for the surah itself. It has nothing to do with chromosomes, lol. Otherwise, the Baqarah sura should have been number 60 instead of 2 ... and not all bees have a count of 16 chromosomes each.
The point is there are many messages of understanding to grasp aside from God's original message in the verses. For instance the word moon is used throughout the entire Qur'an 27 times and the word for new moon is used only once. When added together they total 28 which is the exact number of phases of the moon as it orbits our planet. And the word for land is used 13 times and the word for sea 32 times totalling 45.13/45=28.8888889% and 32/45=71.111111% THE EXACT percentages of water and land that covers our Earth. So my point being God uses these miracles to show only He can create such a book. What man will write a verse that says "In a land close by" or from a land facing east" and over a 23 year period that the Qur'an was revealed, keep count of how many times he used the word land then make sure it fits perfectly in the equation of exactly how much water and land cover the Earth, especially when the man Prophet Muhammad pbuh was illiterate and in the 7th century when no human knew how much water and land was on Earth. So God shows through these miracles that only He has knowledge of things during that time period which He has blessed us to use todays science and math and confirm it as the truth

(February 3, 2016 at 9:18 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:
(February 3, 2016 at 8:53 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote: How about ch.54 The Moon. The word for moon is only used in this chapter only once in verse 1. If u count the remaining verses to the end of the Qur'an u get 1390. The year 1390 in the Islamic Hijra calendar is the same as 1969 of our Gregorian calendar. We all know in 1969 man first set foot on the moon.

Why not count that first verse?  Because then you wouldn't have that coincidence.  See, that's arbitrarily choosing a number out of several options to make it fit.  That's retrofitting, not prophetic.

Anyway, I already told you that this is nothing but numerology and therefore meaningless.  It doesn't impress me.
U can wander blindly as much as u like. To u be ur way of belief and to me be mine
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RE: If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?
Yeah, except our way of belief isn't threatening you with eternal torture for refusing to blindly accept it.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
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