Free will

[dyresand]

i do my homework because i want to do my homework and i have a goal. That being said i don't have to i put off my written assignments and do those later 
because i can and because i have the option too. 

That's great! Remember that when freedom comes back up.

That's the issue on both statements god is being all knowing a all knowing being does not allow for free will. There cannot be free will if there is a being that is all knowing
you just worded both statements differently

I did indeed word both statements differently. Do you think the two statements describe two different ideas?

IF you understanding an all-knowing god's determination of creation as an imposition of necessity, then, of course, free-will does not exist.

IF, however, you understand an all-knowing god's determination of creation as an imposition of contingency (which I think coincides with our experience), then free-will MAY exist. But until we get past that, there is no point in talking about free-will.

You stated in both all knowing you cannot have a all knowing god for both you just cant. That's the obvious issue, a all knowing being does not allow for free will.
However if said being did not know everything then sure free will by all means can/could exist. 

[IATIA]

Good Luck! I gave up on that.

[Ignorant]

You stated in both all knowing you cannot have a all knowing god for both you just cant.

Why not? I apologize if I will not accept that without a reason to do so (especially when I have reasons to accept the opposite)

That's the obvious issue, a all knowing being does not allow for free will.

Ok, let us grant that for now. 

Does an all-knowing being allow for contingency? Contingency is not the same as freedom/free-will. Consider this example:

If I (a human person) roll a 6-sided die, I pre-know all 6 of the contingent (i.e. possible) outcomes. I do not know, however, which of the 6 possible outcomes will actually turn up. When I roll the die, suppose it turns up 3. 3 is the actual outcome of the 6 possible outcomes. In other words, a rolled dice has BOTH 6 contingent outcomes, AND 1 actual outcome. Human's can only pre-know the contingencies.

Now consider the perspective of an all-knowing being:

God pre-knows all 6 of the contingent outcomes. He also pre-knows which of the 6 possible outcomes will actually turn up. As all-knowing, he knows BOTH the contingencies AND the actual outcome. They are not mutually exclusive. A 6 sided die really has BOTH 6 contingent outcomes AND 1 actual outcome. God knows everything about both KINDS of outcomes.

God's knowledge of the actual outcome does not somehow remove the contingent reality of a rolled 6-sided die. It is still contingent, and exactly one contingent reality becomes an actual reality.

However if said being did not know everything then sure free will by all means can/could exist. 

Well, we will come back to freedom. Let's talk about contingency first.

[dyresand]

You stated in both all knowing you cannot have a all knowing god for both you just cant.

Why not? I apologize if I will not accept that without a reason to do so (especially when I have reasons to accept the opposite)

That's the obvious issue, a all knowing being does not allow for free will.

Ok, let us grant that for now. 

Does an all-knowing being allow for contingency? Contingency is not the same as freedom/free-will. Consider this example:

If I (a human person) roll a 6-sided die, I pre-know all 6 of the contingent (i.e. possible) outcomes. I do not know, however, which of the 6 possible outcomes will actually turn up. When I roll the die, suppose it turns up 3. 3 is the actual outcome of the 6 possible outcomes. In other words, a rolled dice has BOTH 6 contingent outcomes, AND 1 actual outcome. Human's can only pre-know the contingencies.

Now consider the perspective of an all-knowing being:

God pre-knows all 6 of the contingent outcomes. He also pre-knows which of the 6 possible outcomes will actually turn up. As all-knowing, he knows BOTH the contingencies AND the actual outcome. They are not mutually exclusive. A 6 sided die really has BOTH 6 contingent outcomes AND 1 actual outcome. God knows everything about both KINDS of outcomes.

God's knowledge of the actual outcome does not somehow remove the contingent reality of a rolled 6-sided die. It is still contingent, and exactly one contingent reality becomes an actual reality.

However if said being did not know everything then sure free will by all means can/could exist. 

Well, we will come back to freedom. Let's talk about contingency first.

1. You are using the argument from contingency.. don't do that but ill humor you anyway. 

if something is contingent, then it derives its existence outside itself. 
So then you could say the universe is contingent then say the universe drives its existence
from outside of itself. (granted that even if the universe even has a outside i.e. multiverse theory)
So that whole first argument you just used means nothing. 

2. The same argument can be said for that as well with god like beings as well. They would know everything 
every single outcome of the six sided dice roll. But again it would mean nothing since god would have foreknowledge of everything.

[Ignorant]

1. You are using the argument from contingency.. don't do that but ill humor you anyway. 

No I am not, actually. I am inviting you to distinguish between two sorts of events: necessary and contingent. Consider a fruit tree: does a fruit tree depend on the presence of sunlight to make fruit? If it does, then fruit-making is contingent. If a fruit tree doesn't depend on anything to make fruit, then it makes fruit necessarily. Which one do you think it is?

if something is contingent, then it derives its existence outside itself. 
So then you could say the universe is contingent then say the universe drives its existence
from outside of itself. (granted that even if the universe even has a outside i.e. multiverse theory)
So that whole first argument you just used means nothing. 

The contingency/non-contingency of the universe as a whole is irrelevant to the consideration of particular contingent events. 

Even if everything in the universe happens without conditions (i.e. if the universe is necessary) save the 6 contingencies of a 6-sided die roll, then the universe necessarily causes exactly 6 contingencies. It isn't all or nothing.

Do you think rolling a 6-sided die is a contingent event or a necessary one?

2. The same argument can be said for that as well with god like beings as well. They would know everything 
every single outcome of the six sided dice roll.

Yes - an all-knowing god would know every single out come. 

Would an all-knowing god ALSO know every single POSSIBLE outcome?

But again it would mean nothing since god would have foreknowledge of everything.

I think it means more than nothing that an all-knowing god knows every single outcome AS WELL AS every single POSSIBLE outcome.

How about this: let's forget god's involvement entirely... in a reality without god, is the outcome of a 6-sided die roll contingent or not?

[dyresand]

1. You are using the argument from contingency.. don't do that but ill humor you anyway. 

No I am not, actually. I am inviting you to distinguish between two sorts of events: necessary and contingent. Consider a fruit tree: does a fruit tree depend on the presence of sunlight to make fruit? If it does, then fruit-making is contingent. If a fruit tree doesn't depend on anything to make fruit, then it makes fruit necessarily. Which one do you think it is?

if something is contingent, then it derives its existence outside itself. 
So then you could say the universe is contingent then say the universe drives its existence
from outside of itself. (granted that even if the universe even has a outside i.e. multiverse theory)
So that whole first argument you just used means nothing. 

The contingency/non-contingency of the universe as a whole is irrelevant to the consideration of particular contingent events. 

Even if everything in the universe happens without conditions (i.e. if the universe is necessary) save the 6 contingencies of a 6-sided die roll, then the universe necessarily causes exactly 6 contingencies. It isn't all or nothing.

Do you think rolling a 6-sided die is a contingent event or a necessary one?

2. The same argument can be said for that as well with god like beings as well. They would know everything 
every single outcome of the six sided dice roll.

Yes - an all-knowing god would know every single out come. 

Would an all-knowing god ALSO know every single POSSIBLE outcome?

But again it would mean nothing since god would have foreknowledge of everything.

I think it means more than nothing that an all-knowing god knows every single outcome AS WELL AS every single POSSIBLE outcome.

How about this: let's forget god's involvement entirely... in a reality without god, is the outcome of a 6-sided die roll contingent or not?

Yeah you are using a argument from contingency you should really google that. 
Yes a all knowing god would know every single possible outcome because if said being knows everything it means said being knows everything including possible outcomes. 
No not it is not to say that a dice roll is contingent that would mean the dice roll would have already happened but in reality a dice roll is subjective to chance. There is a one in sixth chance that it will land on a specific number. If i were to roll a dice and it were to land on 4 then a few moments later i can say that dice roll is contingent because it already happened and said dice roll cannot change.

[Angrboda]

1. You are using the argument from contingency.. don't do that but ill humor you anyway. 

No I am not, actually. I am inviting you to distinguish between two sorts of events: necessary and contingent. Consider a fruit tree: does a fruit tree depend on the presence of sunlight to make fruit? If it does, then fruit-making is contingent. If a fruit tree doesn't depend on anything to make fruit, then it makes fruit necessarily. Which one do you think it is?

You neglect the case wherein the fruit tree depends on something that is not itself contingent. In that case, it makes or doesn't make fruit necessarily.

[dyresand]

No I am not, actually. I am inviting you to distinguish between two sorts of events: necessary and contingent. Consider a fruit tree: does a fruit tree depend on the presence of sunlight to make fruit? If it does, then fruit-making is contingent. If a fruit tree doesn't depend on anything to make fruit, then it makes fruit necessarily. Which one do you think it is?

You neglect the case wherein the fruit tree depends on something that is not itself contingent.  In that case, it makes or doesn't make fruit necessarily.

And thus original sin if the bible were true still doesn't exist and god is angry for nothing.

[Ignorant]

You neglect the case wherein the fruit tree depends on something that is not itself contingent. 

I hope I have not neglected it, because god, as at least one non-contingent condition for fruit-making, would be a pretty embarrassing thing to forget! =)

I'm not sure I have neglected the principle:

"Even if everything in the universe happens without conditions (i.e. if the universe is necessary) save the 6 contingencies of a 6-sided die roll, then the universe necessarily causes exactly 6 contingencies. It isn't all or nothing." - Me

 In that case, it makes or doesn't make fruit necessarily.

The fact that there are two possibilities should make us suspicious of an equivocation of "necessarily" here.

In other words, if one of the fruit-making conditions is itself non-contingent, then fruit-making still depends on the non-contingent thing. Things which occur necessarily do not have a real alternative. If there is any condition at all for fruit-making, necessary or otherwise, then the fruit-making is still contingent upon that condition's obtaining.

In short, a non-contingent condition is still a condition, and an action depending on fulfilled conditions is still contingent. Now, can that non-contingent condition ever not-be-fulfilled? No.

Most important point: 

If the non-contingent condition were the only condition for fruit-making, and that condition were present, then the tree could not NOT make fruit, it is true. But the tree's fruit making is STILL contingent upon the non-contingent thing... so the fruit-making will absolutely happen, and it will absolutely happen CONTINGENTLY.

Here is my rewording of your own formula above :

You - "In that case, it makes or doesn't make fruit necessarily."

Me - "In this case, it doesn't NOT make, or doesn't make fruit contingently."

[dyresand]

You neglect the case wherein the fruit tree depends on something that is not itself contingent. 

I hope I have not neglected it, because god, as at least one non-contingent condition for fruit-making, would be a pretty embarrassing thing to forget! =)

I'm not sure I have neglected the principle:

"Even if everything in the universe happens without conditions (i.e. if the universe is necessary) save the 6 contingencies of a 6-sided die roll, then the universe necessarily causes exactly 6 contingencies. It isn't all or nothing." - Me

 In that case, it makes or doesn't make fruit necessarily.

The fact that there are two possibilities should make us suspicious of an equivocation of "necessarily" here.

In other words, if one of the fruit-making conditions is itself non-contingent, then fruit-making still depends on the non-contingent thing. Things which occur necessarily do not have a real alternative. If there is any condition at all for fruit-making, necessary or otherwise, then the fruit-making is still contingent upon that condition's obtaining.

In short, a non-contingent condition is still a condition, and an action depending on fulfilled conditions is still contingent. Now, can that non-contingent condition ever not-be-fulfilled? No.

Most important point: 

If the non-contingent condition were the only condition for fruit-making, and that condition were present, then the tree could not NOT make fruit, it is true. But the tree's fruit making is STILL contingent upon the non-contingent thing... so the fruit-making will absolutely happen, and it will absolutely happen CONTINGENTLY.

Here is my rewording of your own formula above :

You - "In that case, it makes or doesn't make fruit necessarily."

Me - "In this case, it doesn't NOT make, or doesn't make fruit contingently."

Scenario -  Okay god makes the garden of eden tells two jerk offs named adam and eve they eat everything just not from this tree. 
So premise god is all knowing he already knows whats going to happen they eat tree anyway. Humanity is forever cursed with original sin.
The fruit in their case if those two people existed it would be the case of necessity not contingently. They ate from a tree because a talking snaked talked them into it.
This was before they had any free will they take orders from anything that could talk. Then even then what's the point there is no point if free will was a gift that gift is cursed
and that gift is contingently unnecessary. What's the point of knowing everything knowing every single outcome and giving humans the illusion of free will... there is no point other than were just some pawns to said being were just toys to it and nothing more. I mean why else would the bible say he is all good while at the same time god has shown himself to be a monster worse than the devil. And the devil mind you doesn't even seem all that bad really considering how much humans has he killed compared to god by the way.