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If You Don't Like It
#21
RE: If You Don't Like It
(May 26, 2016 at 12:52 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:
Minimalist Wrote:Actually, they don't have to.  I haven't said the "under god" shit since grammar school.  No one cared.

What does 'having to' have to do with it? It's a TRADITION, Min. If you won't say it, you should LEAVE!!! Why are you even in this country if you won't respect our traditions?

It's a "tradition" since 1954.  I was already 5 by then.  Fuck it.
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#22
RE: If You Don't Like It
Okay. So here's the situation(s).

Currently in Switzerland students can be forced by law to perform cultural tradition X, regardless of the nature of their objections to X. I find this to be ridiculous, because X serves absolutely no secular purpose as far as I can tell, and forcing the students by law to perform X accomplishes nothing.

Currently in America students cannot be forced by law to perform cultural tradition Y, regardless of the nature of their objections to it. I find this to be the better situation, because Y serves absolutely no secular purpose as far as I can tell, and forcing the students by law to perform Y accomplishes nothing.

The second situation is fundamentally different than the first, and I don't see what you're trying to gain from comparing the two. Now, if you were to say something like "The logic behind forcing kids to shake hands is identical to the logic used by those who wanted to force kids to say the pledge. This logic is obviously flawed because the courts agreed that you cannot force kids to say the pledge. Therefore one shouldn't be able to force kids to shake hands." I'd say that's a fine point to make.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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#23
RE: If You Don't Like It
So if you had a house guest who plopped his ass down on your couch and started telling you that he didn't like the color of your carpets and your furniture was shitty and why on earth were you serving lamb for dinner, you'd just sit there and take it?
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#24
RE: If You Don't Like It
I'm just not seeing how you can reasonably say the second is fundamentally different from the first, because of legalities. I don't see how the courts agreeing or disagreeing affects the logic. If the situation was reversed and it wasn't compulsory to shake hands and it was compulsory to say the Pledge, or if they were both compulsory, it would still be wrong for either to be compulsory, for the same reasons.

Do you think I'm trying to make some other point than that by the same logic for not making saying the Pledge compulsory, shaking hands shouldn't be compulsory either?

If you think this conversation is getting out of hand, if you say 'peace out', I'll respect that. I'm an admitted logic-chopper and if I'm doing it wrong, I want to understand how I went wrong; but that's not your problem. :-)
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#25
RE: If You Don't Like It
(May 26, 2016 at 3:10 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: I'm just not seeing how you can reasonably say the second is fundamentally different from the first, because of legalities. I don't see how the courts agreeing or disagreeing affects the logic. If the situation was reversed and it wasn't compulsory to shake hands and it was compulsory to say the Pledge, or if they were both compulsory, it would still be wrong for either to be compulsory, for the same reasons.

Do you think I'm trying to make some other point than that by the same logic for not making saying the Pledge compulsory, shaking hands shouldn't be compulsory either?

If you think this conversation is getting out of hand, if you say 'peace out', I'll respect that. I'm an admitted logic-chopper and if I'm doing it wrong, I want to understand how I went wrong; but that's not your problem. :-)

I think I misunderstood the point you were trying to make as something other than "by the same logic for not making saying the Pledge compulsory, shaking hands shouldn't be compulsory either." I think we're in total agreement on this, heh.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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#26
RE: If You Don't Like It
(May 26, 2016 at 3:05 pm)Minimalist Wrote: So if you had a house guest who plopped his ass down on your couch and started telling you that he didn't like the color of your carpets and your furniture was shitty and why on earth were you serving lamb for dinner, you'd just sit there and take it?

If I told him he had to stay in my house, and eat what I give him, then I'd be in the wrong. Yes.
Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."

10 Christ-like figures that predate Jesus. Link shortened to Chris ate Jesus for some reason...
http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-chris...ate-jesus/

Good video to watch, if you want to know how common the Jesus story really is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50

A list of biblical contradictions from the infallible word of Yahweh.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/jim_m...tions.html

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#27
RE: If You Don't Like It
Minimalist Wrote:So if you had a house guest who plopped his ass down on your couch and started telling you that he didn't like the color of your carpets and your furniture was shitty and why on earth were you serving lamb for dinner, you'd just sit there and take it?

What I'll take depends on what is being done. I would be a colossal ass to throw guests out of my house for not shaking my hand when it's their custom not to. It's called hospitality to have some respect for the sensitivities of others, and you should err in the direction of not making them do things they don't want to do. Frankly, it would be pretty creepy to insist that someone else's child has to clasp my hand or they're out, and it would be reasonable for their parent to expect a better reason for forcing their child to comply with my demand than 'that's how I do, and if you don't like it, fuck off!'. Legally speaking, I can be as much of an ass as I want, including threatening their lives if they don't leave fast enough to suit me (it being America).

The school's original accommodation was a sound one: if the boys wouldn't shake the hands of their female teachers, they wouldn't shake the hands of the male ones, either.

'If you don't like it, leave!' is a Donald Trump level argument. His exact words, I think.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#28
RE: If You Don't Like It
Why would you tell such a person he had to stay?
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#29
RE: If You Don't Like It
FatAndFaithless Wrote:
Quote:I think I misunderstood the point you were trying to make as something other than "by the same logic for not making saying the Pledge compulsory, shaking hands shouldn't be compulsory either."  I think we're in total agreement on this, heh.

I'm sure I could have phrased it more clearly if I had put more thought into it. Thanks for being patient with me. Smile
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#30
RE: If You Don't Like It
No. What Drumpf said was "you can't come."  Somewhat different.
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