The Election is Rigged (I'm Going To Lose)

[Crossless2.0]

Just watched Obamas DNC speech. Brilliantly constructed in detail. Despite having spent a few years in the US, I still have to chuckle when everyone giving speeches is going on about their kids and grandkids and their running mate's kids and grandkids and who's a good mom and who's a good dad. If a candidate did that in Germany, people would assume that they had a stroke.

In Germany, people have the ridiculous idea that elected officials are elected to do some job well.  Here in America we elect people whom we feel are most like us, because, you know, we are all so well trained and qualified to know what's what and who is who.

Yep, the backyard BBQ requirement: If candidates don't pass the 'just folks' test (you can't imagine them mixing with your dipshit friends or enjoying your questionable taste in beer), then they clearly aren't fit to be the chief executive of the federal government.

Stupid Germans and their elitist ideas about competence!

[Esquilax]

I imagine many of Trump's aides must dread his debating Clinton. As it is, they have full time jobs going on the news shows to 'clarify and explain' what their candidate "really" meant every time something stupid, insulting, obnoxious, shocking, or ignorant oozes out of his mouth or his fucking Twitter account. And that is virtually every news cycle these days.

But Trump sharing a stage with a candidate too intelligent to take the bait, who actually understands policy and process, and who has been facing down the likes of him now for decades? He is completely ill-equipped to debate Clinton, unless by 'debate' we mean nothing more than a name-calling and shit-slinging fest. Somewhere in the dim recesses of his reptilian brain, he must understand that he is utterly overmatched, at least so long as the moderator doesn't let him turn it into a free-for-all, and that Clinton will eat him alive.

I can't wait to see the next Republican post-mortem analysis after they lose a third consecutive general election. Spoiler alert: "We need to stop pandering to bigots, morons, and crazy people -- i.e., our base."

I sometimes wonder just how far Trump would have gotten if all the other GOP hopefuls hadn't been willing to sink to his level during their debates and appearances. If we didn't have them making dick jokes and giving each other pithy nicknames. If, to a man, they'd all kept the level of discourse high- a feat, I'm aware, for some of these theocrat thugs- and stuck to the issues, so that you had just one squawking orange ballbag up on stage instead of, like, fifteen.

Trump got away with running his campaign like he has because all those other idiots gave him cover: he may have been bad, but the problem was that he wasn't substantially different from the other bickering toddlers up for a vote in the primaries. Their willingness to employ the same childish "demonize the enemy," rhetoric against themselves that they do against the democrats played a big part in making a Trump presidency a palatable option, and now here we are.

And it's just him, and Hillary. He's the lone squawking, indolent voice on stage, his lack of ideas standing in stark contrast to an actual politician. Without the cover of the rest of the slavering ideologues... people won't have any choice but to see the real him in the light of the real world, and not the goddamn toddler carnival that the GOP has turned into this election cycle.

[CapnAwesome]

I don't think you could rig the American election. If it came out that Hillary had rigged voting machines or some such (and considering how secure her communications aren't and the technology involved and trail it would leave, it probably would.) she would be instantly impeached and her reputation and legacy ruined forever, her family it's future in politics permanently gone. Any speaking fees that she would later garnish, totally gone. It would be better for her to lose the election then to rig it and it be found out.

Trump likes conspiracy theories and voting machine conspiracies have been around forever. Not sure if he is referencing that, as he's not really clear. I think it's probably just him playing up the outsider thing or something that worked for him in the primaries so he's repeating it. Maybe an appeal to Bernie supporters. Maybe him pre-excusing a loss. That's certainly the angle that people who loath Trump are going with, but they always believe the worst or most extreme about him, so I give that little credence.

Anyway, the election isn't rigged, so whatever.

[CapnAwesome]

I imagine many of Trump's aides must dread his debating Clinton. As it is, they have full time jobs going on the news shows to 'clarify and explain' what their candidate "really" meant every time something stupid, insulting, obnoxious, shocking, or ignorant oozes out of his mouth or his fucking Twitter account. And that is virtually every news cycle these days.

But Trump sharing a stage with a candidate too intelligent to take the bait, who actually understands policy and process, and who has been facing down the likes of him now for decades? He is completely ill-equipped to debate Clinton, unless by 'debate' we mean nothing more than a name-calling and shit-slinging fest. Somewhere in the dim recesses of his reptilian brain, he must understand that he is utterly overmatched, at least so long as the moderator doesn't let him turn it into a free-for-all, and that Clinton will eat him alive.

I can't wait to see the next Republican post-mortem analysis after they lose a third consecutive general election. Spoiler alert: "We need to stop pandering to bigots, morons, and crazy people -- i.e., our base."

I sometimes wonder just how far Trump would have gotten if all the other GOP hopefuls hadn't been willing to sink to his level during their debates and appearances. If we didn't have them making dick jokes and giving each other pithy nicknames. If, to a man, they'd all kept the level of discourse high- a feat, I'm aware, for some of these theocrat thugs- and stuck to the issues, so that you had just one squawking orange ballbag up on stage instead of, like, fifteen.

Trump got away with running his campaign like he has because all those other idiots gave him cover: he may have been bad, but the problem was that he wasn't substantially different from the other bickering toddlers up for a vote in the primaries. Their willingness to employ the same childish "demonize the enemy," rhetoric against themselves that they do against the democrats played a big part in making a Trump presidency a palatable option, and now here we are.

And it's just him, and Hillary. He's the lone squawking, indolent voice on stage, his lack of ideas standing in stark contrast to an actual politician. Without the cover of the rest of the slavering ideologues... people won't have any choice but to see the real him in the light of the real world, and not the goddamn toddler carnival that the GOP has turned into this election cycle.

That was Trumps strategy, drag them down into the mud with him and stupidly they went along with it. We'll see with Hillary. I think she's probably smarter then that.

However with the debates the Republicans were saying the exact same thing. Wait until he debates, then he'll fall apart. Wait until the next debate. You have to remember that Trump has more television experience then everybody else put together. However unlike the Republicans, who were unused to being on TV largely, Hillary has the second most. She's been in countless debates, run high profile campaigns and I'm sure she knows to stay dignified and let other people around her be the mud slingers. Still, she's never been someone who looked great on TV, sort of in an stiff Al Gore type way.

Still, underestimating Trump in the debates would be stupid.

[Minimalist]

However if you are a private organization like the RNC / DNC it's easy to rig a primary.

That's not really true, though.  Primaries are overseen by the same state election boards.  Now, the election boards are partisan as well so it they have to be watched like hawks and they are by lawyers for the other side but to say that the political parties run the primaries is an overreach.

Do you know what process is not overseen by the states?  Caucuses.

[Anomalocaris]

I think what you meant to say is American elections are difficult to severely rig. But marginal election rigging through vote denials and voter intimidations undoubted happen very election.

[Crossless2.0]

I imagine many of Trump's aides must dread his debating Clinton. As it is, they have full time jobs going on the news shows to 'clarify and explain' what their candidate "really" meant every time something stupid, insulting, obnoxious, shocking, or ignorant oozes out of his mouth or his fucking Twitter account. And that is virtually every news cycle these days.

But Trump sharing a stage with a candidate too intelligent to take the bait, who actually understands policy and process, and who has been facing down the likes of him now for decades? He is completely ill-equipped to debate Clinton, unless by 'debate' we mean nothing more than a name-calling and shit-slinging fest. Somewhere in the dim recesses of his reptilian brain, he must understand that he is utterly overmatched, at least so long as the moderator doesn't let him turn it into a free-for-all, and that Clinton will eat him alive.

I can't wait to see the next Republican post-mortem analysis after they lose a third consecutive general election. Spoiler alert: "We need to stop pandering to bigots, morons, and crazy people -- i.e., our base."

I sometimes wonder just how far Trump would have gotten if all the other GOP hopefuls hadn't been willing to sink to his level during their debates and appearances. If we didn't have them making dick jokes and giving each other pithy nicknames. If, to a man, they'd all kept the level of discourse high- a feat, I'm aware, for some of these theocrat thugs- and stuck to the issues, so that you had just one squawking orange ballbag up on stage instead of, like, fifteen.

Trump got away with running his campaign like he has because all those other idiots gave him cover: he may have been bad, but the problem was that he wasn't substantially different from the other bickering toddlers up for a vote in the primaries. Their willingness to employ the same childish "demonize the enemy," rhetoric against themselves that they do against the democrats played a big part in making a Trump presidency a palatable option, and now here we are.

And it's just him, and Hillary. He's the lone squawking, indolent voice on stage, his lack of ideas standing in stark contrast to an actual politician. Without the cover of the rest of the slavering ideologues... people won't have any choice but to see the real him in the light of the real world, and not the goddamn toddler carnival that the GOP has turned into this election cycle.

Unfortunately, the GOP has been sliding into 'toddler carnival land' my entire voting life. This election is a difference in degree only. I remember all too well how obnoxious and toxic the '88 election (the first I was old enough to vote in) seemed at the time. Surely, I told myself, this represents the nadir of political discourse, and things must get better from this point on.

Oh, naivety, thy name was Crossless1!

Back then, of course, it was all about pandering to the conservative Christians. Now, with the rise of the disaffected Tea Party types, there is actually a chance (a slim chance, to be sure) that the conservative Christians might prove to be the adult Republicans in the room, should enough of them simply stay home on election day rather than cast a vote for an oafish demagogue who is so clearly not one of them. We'll see. The usual Baptist and Evangelical loons in power have given Trump their stamp of approval. I hope the sheep have more sense.

What the hell! I can hope, and I'm open to surprises.

[I_am_not_mafia]

However with the debates the Republicans were saying the exact same thing. Wait until he debates, then he'll fall apart. Wait until the next debate. You have to remember that Trump has more television experience then everybody else put together. However unlike the Republicans, who were unused to being on TV largely, Hillary has the second most. She's been in countless debates, run high profile campaigns and I'm sure she knows to stay dignified and let other people around her be the mud slingers. Still, she's never been someone who looked great on TV, sort of in an stiff Al Gore type way.

Still, underestimating Trump in the debates would be stupid.

I think Trump will do OK in the debates.

There's a saying in martial arts, never box a boxer.

Hillary Clinton debates, and Trump trolls. Trump won't try debating Hillary Clinton, but Hillary Clinton will have to keep her cool around Trump.

Trump can openly lie and whatever Clinton responds with he can stick with his story. He has the narcissistic personality to get away with it because he'll believe his own lies and convince the audience of his sincerity. It won't matter if the papers reveal how wrong he is because that will be after the event and analysis doesn't count as much as appearance.

We know on this forum how debates with theists in their churches aren't won on whether what is being said correct or not but whether it feels good to the audience. Trump knows how to play up to the audience and if he gets Clinton frustrated and riled then it won't matter that he bullshitting.

During the debates the educated people will be throwing their hands up in the air and going "Waaah??". The rest of the world will be face palming. The Trump supporters won't know nuthin about no foreign poly seas but will like how Trump sticks it to the bitch. And everyone else will be unsure but not really caring enough to find out who was right and so will rely on their feels.

Then Trump becomes president, gets the nuclear codes and it will be all ...

---

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[Crossless2.0]

However with the debates the Republicans were saying the exact same thing. Wait until he debates, then he'll fall apart. Wait until the next debate. You have to remember that Trump has more television experience then everybody else put together. However unlike the Republicans, who were unused to being on TV largely, Hillary has the second most. She's been in countless debates, run high profile campaigns and I'm sure she knows to stay dignified and let other people around her be the mud slingers. Still, she's never been someone who looked great on TV, sort of in an stiff Al Gore type way.

Still, underestimating Trump in the debates would be stupid.

I think Trump will do OK in the debates.

There's a saying in martial arts, never box a boxer.

Hillary Clinton debates, and Trump trolls. Trump won't try debating Hillary Clinton, but Hillary Clinton will have to keep her cool around Trump.

Trump can openly lie and whatever Clinton responds with he can stick with his story. He has the narcissistic personality to get away with it because he'll believe his own lies and convince the audience of his sincerity. It won't matter if the papers reveal how wrong he is because that will be after the event and analysis doesn't count as much as appearance.

We know on this forum how debates with theists in their churches aren't won on whether what is being said correct or not but whether it feels good to the audience. Trump knows how to play up to the audience and if he gets Clinton frustrated and riled then it won't matter that he bullshitting.

During the debates the educated people will be throwing their hands up in the air and going "Waaah??".  The rest of the world will be face palming. The Trump supporters won't know nuthin about no foreign poly seas but will like how Trump sticks it to the bitch. And everyone else will be unsure but not really caring enough to find out who was right and so will rely on their feels.

Then Trump becomes president, gets the nuclear codes and it will be all ...

---

---

Well, yes, that is why debates are such a farcical way to present a candidate's ideas to the public.

I wish we could take our candidates and put them in lock-down for 96 hours -- no visitors, no internet or phone access, no cribbed notes, no contact with the outside world at all -- just a sheaf of paper and pencils, enough food and water to sustain them, and a serious questionnaire regarding all manner of important domestic and foreign issues that they must answer in essay form to the best of their abilities. Given the low bar we set for ourselves when it comes to our 'leaders', an advanced civics and general knowledge test might not be a bad idea, either.

[CapnAwesome]

However with the debates the Republicans were saying the exact same thing. Wait until he debates, then he'll fall apart. Wait until the next debate. You have to remember that Trump has more television experience then everybody else put together. However unlike the Republicans, who were unused to being on TV largely, Hillary has the second most. She's been in countless debates, run high profile campaigns and I'm sure she knows to stay dignified and let other people around her be the mud slingers. Still, she's never been someone who looked great on TV, sort of in an stiff Al Gore type way.

Still, underestimating Trump in the debates would be stupid.

I think Trump will do OK in the debates.

There's a saying in martial arts, never box a boxer.

Hillary Clinton debates, and Trump trolls. Trump won't try debating Hillary Clinton, but Hillary Clinton will have to keep her cool around Trump.

Trump can openly lie and whatever Clinton responds with he can stick with his story. He has the narcissistic personality to get away with it because he'll believe his own lies and convince the audience of his sincerity. It won't matter if the papers reveal how wrong he is because that will be after the event and analysis doesn't count as much as appearance.

We know on this forum how debates with theists in their churches aren't won on whether what is being said correct or not but whether it feels good to the audience. Trump knows how to play up to the audience and if he gets Clinton frustrated and riled then it won't matter that he bullshitting.

During the debates the educated people will be throwing their hands up in the air and going "Waaah??".  The rest of the world will be face palming. The Trump supporters won't know nuthin about no foreign poly seas but will like how Trump sticks it to the bitch. And everyone else will be unsure but not really caring enough to find out who was right and so will rely on their feels.

Then Trump becomes president, gets the nuclear codes and it will be all ...

---

---

I agree with everything you say (minus Trump bringing about nuclear Armageddon, which is silly) although I think there is an important part that is left out. A core of Hillary supporters will want her to sink to Trump's level. That's the call that she'll have to ignore. Even if Trump wins a debate (I'm not sure how many there will be), she needs to stick to looking presidential and making him not look presidential. She also needs to not underestimate him.