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A reflection on past events.
#1
A reflection on past events.
I'm a good guy. I'm not a great guy; I'm far from perfect, but I think I'm pretty nice and manage to handle things as best I can. I think rationally, and when I make big decisions, I do think ahead and try to reduce the amount of damage that could be done by my actions. However, as I am not perfect, I make mistakes.

There were points over the past few days where I contemplated just giving in with this place; closing it down or handing it over to someone. It wasn't just the people leaving; it was the words they said, both privately and publicly. I don't know if anyone has had a comparable experience in their lives, but this is the first time I've had numerous people (whom I've previously respected) liken me to some sort of evil, maniacal, power-hungry madman. Even if you haven't had that experience before, I'm sure you can imagine that it hurts. It hurts so much, because I've put more than two years of work into this community, and after that amount of time, it seems that some people still can't find it in themselves to forgive one mistake. The pressure for perfection is (excuse the phrase) soul-destroying.

At the same time, this kind of behavior is very revealing, because it shows how people can substitute their own rationality for anger when it suits them. It also demonstrates how easily people can become hypocrites; siding not with the people who are trying to explain their actions and reconcile them with the forum members, but instead with one (albeit highly respected) member who rather than discuss and use her intellect, decides to turn to anarchy and is suitably punished for it. They can so easily ignore every piece of evidence that was used as a grounds for punishment, and yet they find it ever so hard to do the same when it comes to those who have pledged their time and effort to keep the forums running.

But instead of getting angry; instead of sinking to their level and trying to get some form of revenge; I'm going to do the only thing that seems right to me. I'm going to extend them a friendly hand. If those people (and they know who they are) wish to return at any point in the future, they will be welcomed back with open arms, no questions asked, no accusations, no foul words. We aren't trying to seize power; we honestly don't want to crowd this place with rules, but when we are forced to do so, we are obliged to enact certain limits in order to keep this place as friendly as it has always tried to be.

In hopes of ending on a positive note, the staff will continue to work on improving the forums. We want to see it grow past these recent events, and into a large friendly community where both atheists and theists can discuss their beliefs. As such, we have taken Shell B on as a moderator, and I hope that her pleasant demeanor and rational thinking will help to lead the forum back on track over the next few months, and into the far future.

Taking on a moderator was only necessary due to the resignation of a well loved and highly respected admin, Darwinian. Darwinian was one of the first members of the new staff team when we formed 2 years ago, and over those years he has contributed time, money, and coding skills to the forum. He is responsible for many of the BBCodes that you use, and was often the first admin on the scene when a spammer launched an attack. His shirt-making skills have led to official t-shirts for the forums being distributed worldwide, and he always donated the profit he made back into the forums. Darwinian is staying at the forums as a regular member, but I can speak for the entire staff team (and the forums) when I say that his presence in the everyday running of things will be missed.

-Adrian
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#2
RE: A reflection on past events.
As a theist I think I can empathize with pressure of imperfection, lack of forgiveness and hypocrites. I've personally dealt with division amongst a community and remaining kind, forgiving and making amends where necessary seem to be the keys to reforming a unified community. I'm grateful for this place, no where else have a seen a greater concentration of intellegent, rational and open-minded atheists in an internet forum. Especially a forum that upholds such positive ideals and equality and enforces them judiciously. Kudos to all of you. (I'd say God bless but I'm sure some would be offended)
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post

always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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#3
RE: A reflection on past events.
(August 21, 2010 at 10:13 pm)Tiberius Wrote: I'm a good guy. I'm not a great guy; I'm far from perfect, but I think I'm pretty nice and manage to handle things as best I can. I think rationally, and when I make big decisions, I do think ahead and try to reduce the amount of damage that could be done by my actions. However, as I am not perfect, I make mistakes.

I think everything in life for everyone generally boils down to what you said above.

People are going to do what they want to do and you shouldn't become so self-concious over things in which you cannot control. Doing so is a pointless exersize in stressing yourself for no real good reason.
People are going to come and go from here for any reason and not every decision you make is going to be popular, even with the most seemingly rational and good-natured decisions you make.

Since I think this (at least partly) has to do with the 'no insults' rule that, for some reason, was such a hot-button issue with a few people, I find it difficult to believe that there are many forums without that rule and until we actually needed it, the lack of that rule allowed at least one troll to come here for the express purpose of telling everyone what he believed and ignoring the responses except for the purpose of insulting everyone who refuted the points made.
I mean, what else could have been done beyond simply tolerating the troll and giving him bad reputation? Assuming he followed every other rule and the Troll's blog wasn't uncovered, he may just as well be harassing other members to this day on any thread in which he wishes to spend time in. What else could have been done?

I don't know if this there are other issues that could have contributed to you feeling this way, but I'm most familiar with the one above and I can't imagine any other idea that you and the other moderators could have agreed on that would be at all as effective.

In the end, however, as long as you care about the work you have and people here, there will be people coming and going all the time. Some of them will leave like what we've had recently, some will leave because they simply don't have as much time to visit and post anymore, some will recieve the ban hammer. I can guarentee that more people will stay if they find this a pleasant place to electronically hang out and I have no reason that you or any of the other moderators have any intention otherwise. That's just the nature of this business you're in. That's why forums have moderators, banks have rent-a-cops (and real cops on occasion), restraunts have stringent sanitation guidelines, the US evironmental protection agency has agents who enforce their laws that tell you what you can dump into the air, water, and surrounding land, and the UN has international police forces so your neighbor can't develop that mutated anthrax that they say is just for duck hunting.

So... in summation: you're doing fine.
If today you can take a thing like evolution and make it a crime to teach in the public schools, tomorrow you can make it a crime to teach it in the private schools and next year you can make it a crime to teach it to the hustings or in the church. At the next session you may ban books and the newspapers...
Ignorance and fanaticism are ever busy and need feeding. Always feeding and gloating for more. Today it is the public school teachers; tomorrow the private. The next day the preachers and the lecturers, the magazines, the books, the newspapers. After a while, Your Honor, it is the setting of man against man and creed against creed until with flying banners and beating drums we are marching backward to the glorious ages of the sixteenth centry when bigots lighted fagots to burn the men who dared to bring any intelligence and enlightenment and culture to the human mind. ~Clarence Darrow, at the Scopes Monkey Trial, 1925

Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first. ~Ronald Reagan
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#4
RE: A reflection on past events.
First, I will say that I when I was looking for a new atheist forum to chat on I was trying to find one that didn't have many rules. This one seemed lax and looked like a good place. (I also really felt the need to join a forum. For some reason I don't think I'd want to join forums for other things.) So, I was too a bit peeved at the insult rule and such. I was seriously considering leaving– even if it meant I was no longer on any forum. However, I stepped away from the computer and when I came back I realized it wasn't a big deal, because I (almost?) never do anything like that. In fact the only reason I care about rules–for the most part anyway– is because I'm afraid I will break one and get banned. Though, I'm pretty sure the worst I do is (attempt) to derail threads. I also get slightly annoyed when I see that people get banned, because I– well it must be because the last forum I was on– when I was on it– only banned two people. (I mention this a lot, I apologize. I think I miss them, not that I don't like you guys, of course. I like you guys!) I think for some reason I think that banning people is a negative reflection on the forum. (I have no idea how I reached that conclusion.) And I know that the people who where banned, were so, because they broke the rules. I looked over them there wasn't any that I thought were unfair, even though I was iffy on the preaching one, but we have a few theists here who can debate without getting banned so, I guess that's okay. Sorry, for that ramble- it was probably longer then it needed to be.

I think, most people where upset because we had a vote. At least about the insult, business. Most people said leave it and then you, Adrian, changed your mind because of Edward– was it? Anyway, you wanted to make sure someone like this wouldn't harass everyone again. If anything the vote shouldn't have been about insulting, but about trolls. Except that I believe the vote came in after the objectification thread incident. I know we are not a democracy, but people like that. They like to think they have some say in whats going on. Yeah, you could have done things differently, maybe it would have softened things with some people, maybe not. In either case you were not in the wrong. You didn't do it because you are an evil warlord.

Everyone makes mistakes. Maybe they will realize that thy might have made one and accept your friendly hand. If not, that is their loss. (Frodo–I think said something at one point about where they went having more rules. I don't know the truth of this, because I don't know where they went)

I've already said a bumble of things as it is. and I hope it makes some sense. I just want to end it with: Adrian, I do think you are a good guy and even if I don't like the insults rule (I really don't know if I do or not) I understand your reasoning and am sure you didn't do it to be malicious. I am really glad you didn't dismantle/leave the forums.
[Image: siggy2_by_Cego_Colher.jpg]
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#5
RE: A reflection on past events.
Thanks Cego. Yeah, the vote was a mistake; as I said afterwards, all it did was cement the view that people were allowed to insult, and that caused more people to use insulting language. It was certainly a catalyst for the forum becoming unfriendly and a hostile environment, and since we commissioned the poll, we found ourselves to blame.

As for the new rules, we've said that we'll enforce them, but we won't be complete assholes about it. If you insult someone by accident and nobody complains about it, there isn't any reason to do anything. If someone does complain, we may have a few private words, gentle reminders to think over attitudes in posts before you click "Submit", but I don't expect to be banning anyone for breaking the rules unless they go completely overboard (i.e trolling) or decide they just don't want to obey them anymore.

Thanks for the kind words everyone Big Grin
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#6
RE: A reflection on past events.
Epic post Adrian. You're an excellent admin, great guy and...thank fuck you didn't quit!
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#7
RE: A reflection on past events.
I'll have to plan my coup for another day. [Image: sad_shakefist.gif]
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
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#8
RE: A reflection on past events.
I'm sure many of us are internet veterans and have seen many schisms like this in the past. I know I have, and they're never fun. What I'm always aghast at his how people's personal issues and misconceptions take the forefront and facts have little to do with the drama at hand. I guess that's the nature of these things. I think a lot of the drama on these forums was more about personal issues that pretended to be about the rule. Considering the members that did leave for another forum that also seems to disallow personal attacks only confirms that opinion for me.

It saddens me that things had to get so heated, that rational minds couldn't prevail. But ultimately, I don't cry over spilled milk. If people feel the need to leave for whatever reason, I wouldn't try to stop them. However, like Adrian I wouldn't say not to come back. My ultimate commitment is to the forums, and whatever personal drama is involved I do try to always separate my personal feelings from actions taken as an admin. I have been hurt by some of the things said about me either in these forums or through the grapevine. However, I know that whatever happens, I'm here as an admin for no other reason than the other admins and moderators wanted me to be here and value what I do and the commitment I have to the forums.

The vote was unfortunate. I knew it wasn't the right thing to do before we did it but the mods were getting nowhere, it seemed the only way to reach a consensus at the time after discussing it for a fair amount of time. Yet at the same time, in a way it was good for the forums because I think it showed why a no insult rule is necessary for a forum whose main goal is civil discussion.

In an event such as this, I always appreciate, most of all, the people who may be angry or in severe disagreement with what happened, but recognize that decisions made by the admins and moderators are not and can not always be about what the individual wants, but what we view as best for the community. I thank those people who voiced their concerns in a civil way without resorting to drastic measures.

Things are cooling down, as I knew they would. The birthday is around the corner and I'm looking forward to not only remembering how this thing got started, and how I was lucky to be here at the beginning as the only woman on this forum just finding her voice for debates and discussion, but also to look to the future and figure out a way to make this an even better community for atheists and theists to have meaningful discussions.
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin

::Blogs:: Boston Atheism Examiner - Boston Atheists Blog | :Tongueodcast:: Boston Atheists Report
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#9
RE: A reflection on past events.
I think the main problem that people have had is how drastically this forum has changed in such a short time, but i'm all but convinced this is just a shit storm and will pass overhead shortly, including the over aggressive moderation and the backlash that it will inevitably cause.

I for one think the new insult rules were taken way too far, it's gotten beyond the initial discouragement of flamers and trolls that were the initial problem, and now you get situations where people feel like there is someone breathing down their neck all the time, it's no wonder shit has hit the fan.

Sae was being a bitch, that's for certain - deliberately trying to start shit.

Eil, i think your shameless promotion of your "rational mind" is part of the problem, it's arrogant and rather insulting (oh the irony) this isn't an issue that can be sorted out with reason and logic, it's fundamentally about what kind of forum people want to be part of, the experience they want to have - and considering how hard it is to find a good forum for intellectuals that still has the grit and freedom that this forum did have - I'm not surprised that some have reacted the way they did.
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#10
RE: A reflection on past events.
Void, I never said I was a perfectly rational person. Why don't you read my posts again.

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin

::Blogs:: Boston Atheism Examiner - Boston Atheists Blog | :Tongueodcast:: Boston Atheists Report
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