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WTF???
#1
WTF???
Hello, y'all. I'm the AngryBiker. What makes me angry, you may ask? Ignorance, obstinance and stupidity. Obstinance most of all, because stupidity can't be helped and ignorance can be cured. I pose a question;

As a deist, I believe in a creator based upon observable, tangible phenomena. I have no desire to impress my beliefs upon others, as it is my belief that others may believe what they will. I respect all beliefs that respect all others. It seems to me that atheists are preoccupied with impressing their beliefs upon others, much like fundamentalist Christians do. Atheists, and the un-American Criminal Liberties Union in particular, seem to spend a great deal of time and energy fighting things like recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance and public prayer. Will somebody please tell me where in the Constitution it states that there shall be freedom FROM religion? I don't get it. The Constitution simply states that Congress shall establish no State religion.
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#2
RE: WTF???
Apparently you are ignorant of all the cases the ACLU has taken to court on behalf of Christians as well.

The first amendment is quite simple, but obviously understanding nuance is a rare ability, especially among US Americans... The violation of the first amendment can swing in two different directions, both of them equally bad:

Scenario 1:
A teacher at a public (i.e. taxpayer funded) school leads a class in morning prayer. The teacher is an employee of the state. The teacher is in violation of the first amendment because as a representative of the state she is establishing her religion in the classroom (even if she allows other students to sit out of the prayer).

Scenario 2:
A student at a public school is privately praying over his lunch in the cafeteria. A teacher comes over to him, asks him what he is doing. He says he is praying. The teacher then says you cannot pray here. Again, the teacher is in violation of the first amendment, being a representative of the state. The teacher (and by extension, the state) has no say in the student's beliefs or lack thereof.

The ACLU has gone to court over BOTH scenarios, and things similar to it.

That you fail to grasp this very simple concept means you either (a) fell asleep in civics class or (b) had a crappy civics teacher (probably a coach).
“Society is not a disease, it is a disaster. What a stupid miracle that one can live in it.” ~ E.M. Cioran
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#3
RE: WTF???
Welcome.

I don't know the organisations you provided, but I do need to point out a correction to your definition of atheists: We do not have beliefs, as atheists, the only thing in common between us is that we lack the believe in god(or gods). However, when religion tries to dip the foot into government, atheists will be there to defend one of the most important achievements of any civilized country: Separation of church and state. How would you feel if you are a hindu, and had to pledge your alliegance to the god of the bible? Was that fair?
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#4
RE: WTF???
(August 28, 2010 at 4:06 pm)AngryBiker Wrote: Atheists, and the un-American Criminal Liberties Union in particular, seem to spend a great deal of time and energy fighting things like recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance and public prayer.
Will somebody please tell me where in the Constitution it states that there shall be freedom FROM religion? I don't get it. The Constitution simply states that Congress shall establish no State religion.
Justice David Souter concluded that "government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion." in the 1994 Supreme Court Case Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet.

Source: Board_of_Education_of_Kiryas_Joel_Village_School_District_v._Grumet

The Pledge of Allegiance mentioning God is a violation since it contains a religious concept over a non-religious one (and by the way, the original pledge wasn't a violation...Congress added "under God" in the 50s). Public prayer (as in prayer at official public meetings) is a violation since it promotes one religion over another (as well as over irreligion).

The constitution has to be interpreted, and the Supreme Court has interpreted it to mean that not only can Congress establish a state religion, but that the government cannot hold one religion over another, or religion in general over irreligion.

If atheists and the ACLU were actually trying to impose their beliefs on others, we wouldn't be getting rid of religious prayers; we'd be forcing people to use our own. We aren't asking people to pledge allegiance to "science, reason, & skepticism", and we aren't asking schools to teach that God doesn't exist. All we are asking is for public offices to keep out of the "God" debate; and that applies to atheists just as much as it does to the religious.
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#5
RE: WTF???
Hi, What do you ride?

[Image: mybannerglitter06eee094.gif]
If you're not supposed to ride faster than your guardian angel can fly then mine had better get a bloody SR-71.
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#6
RE: WTF???
Quote:Will somebody please tell me where in the Constitution it states that there shall be freedom FROM religion? I don't get it. The Constitution simply states that Congress shall establish no State religion.

Section 116 is accepted as giving that freedom.


Oh,do you mean the AMERICAN constitution? I quoted the Australian constitution,and UK doesn't actually have a convenient single document known as "The Constitution".

My understanding is that freedom FROM religion has long been established in the US via constitutional lawyers and the US supreme court.

The argument that a freedom simply doesn't exist because it is not specifically mentioned in the constitution is a little fatuous. EG as far as I know the US constitution makes no mention of the right own semi automatic weapons,only" the right to bear arms" .(Second Amendment,1791)


Quote: What makes me angry, you may ask? Ignorance, obstinance and stupidity. Obstinance most of all, because stupidity can't be helped and ignorance can be cured.

Considering what follows,I find it hilarious that you seem to have written that statement without a hint irony.

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#7
RE: WTF???
(August 28, 2010 at 4:30 pm)Entropist Wrote: Apparently you are ignorant of all the cases the ACLU has taken to court on behalf of Christians as well.

The first amendment is quite simple, but obviously understanding nuance is a rare ability, especially among US Americans... The violation of the first amendment can swing in two different directions, both of them equally bad:

Scenario 1:
A teacher at a public (i.e. taxpayer funded) school leads a class in morning prayer. The teacher is an employee of the state. The teacher is in violation of the first amendment because as a representative of the state she is establishing her religion in the classroom (even if she allows other students to sit out of the prayer).

Scenario 2:
A student at a public school is privately praying over his lunch in the cafeteria. A teacher comes over to him, asks him what he is doing. He says he is praying. The teacher then says you cannot pray here. Again, the teacher is in violation of the first amendment, being a representative of the state. The teacher (and by extension, the state) has no say in the student's beliefs or lack thereof.

The ACLU has gone to court over BOTH scenarios, and things similar to it.

That you fail to grasp this very simple concept means you either (a) fell asleep in civics class or (b) had a crappy civics teacher (probably a coach).

Ah, yes. the typical belligerent atheist. Anybody who doesn't share your point of view is obviously ignorant.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Please tell me how your diatribe answers my question based upon the actual text of the 1st amendment. Your argument is specious at best.
(August 28, 2010 at 8:47 pm)Zen Badger Wrote: Hi, What do you ride?

Currently an '06 Fatboy.
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#8
RE: WTF???
Quote:Ah, yes. the typical belligerent atheist.

You don't know many atheists, do you?
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#9
RE: WTF???
@AngryBiker

So you respond to the person who calls you ignorant, yet ignore my post which contained perfectly reasonable explanations to your questions?
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#10
RE: WTF???
(August 28, 2010 at 9:08 pm)AngryBiker Wrote: Please tell me how your diatribe answers my question based upon the actual text of the 1st amendment.

Simple:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion [= SCENARIO 1 as mentioned above]
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof... [= SCENARIO 2 as mentioned above]

And by the way, this has nothing to do with any "viewpoint" of atheism or religion. This is basic civics.
“Society is not a disease, it is a disaster. What a stupid miracle that one can live in it.” ~ E.M. Cioran
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