Catholics VS Protestants Debate Thread

[vorlon13]

Praying through or to saints is an affront to God.

Saints know nothing that God doesn't know, saints cannot wheedle or cajole God into doing something A) He wasn't going to do anyhow B) contrary to His nature as God Almighty.


Saints, by their interposition between penitent and God are inherently coming before God regardless of what the penitent believes they do, and that is forbidden in the Decalogue.

God already has angels, saints are redundant and believing they exist is an affront to God as that implies He needs their help and/or would waste His Almightyness in their existence.

The process for ascertaining sainthood has changed over the centuries, so it is clear, some saints have squeezed through a flawed process and therefore aren't recognized as such by God, if He did in fact recognize any. Additionally, a flawed process would deny recognition of sainthood to some claimants, had God deemed to recognize saints, from individuals that are in fact saints.

[LadyForCamus]

I don't think unicorns poop at all.

[...]

What? Did you forget this horrifying thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbYWhdLO43Q
?

I was searching the Internet high and low for that video so I could post it here!  Lol.  I couldn't remember what the product was called.  I've heard nothing but good things about it, actually!

[Full Circle]

I dunno... I think even if it was caught on tape, skeptics would still say it was a trick or w/e. I don't think anything would be evidence enough.

If Jesus Christ magically invented a camera on the spot in 20something A.D. Jerusalem, I think he would be universally worshipped to this day.

That is until photoshop came along. 

[Tonus]

I think a more important question is whether or not the second commandment forbids any sort of artwork.  It can be interpreted to mean not to bow to images or idols, but it also seems to definitively state that they were to not even make them at all:

“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.  You shall not bow down to them or worship them"

And it's pretty important to make sure you get this one right, since he follows it with a pretty serious threat: "for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me." It's the equivalent of saying "I'll hit you so hard your great-great-grandkids will die."

[emjay]

I'm not a Christian any more but to whatever extent I can still have doubts about it from time to time, that doesn't extend to Catholicism. In other words since I was indoctrinated a Protestant I'd never give Catholicism the time of day even if I did return to Christianity...  much less as an atheist. Too much idolatry... turning every man and his dog into tantamount to a god to be worshipped (saints and the virgin mary), not to mention the reliance on graven images. Sorry about that... just letting out a bit of my inbuilt (read indoctrinated) Protestant anti-Catholicism even though I'm not a Christian any more

Catholics don't worship statues or worship saints, that's a common myth among protestants.
First, where are you getting worship? The definition of pray is "1) to utter petition to God, 2) to make a fervent request, 3) to beseech, implore, 4) to make a devout or earnest request for." Where in the definition do you see the word worship or anything like worship? To pray is to make a request or petition to God. When we pray to God, we are uttering a petition to Him, and when we pray to Mary and the saints we are making an earnest or devout request for prayers from Mary and the saints. In the medieval times, when people would say "I pray you would do this," were they worshipping whoever they were talking to?
        
The Seventh General Council shows the difference between venerating Mary and worshipping God. It showed that Latria - is adoration that is given to the trinity alone, and always refers to God (John 16:2, Romans 9:4, Heb 9:1-6), and hyper-dulia - which is veneration to Mary. There is a difference. The bible also shows this difference. Take a look at Exodus 18:7, saying, "then Moses went out to meet his father in law, and bowed down and kissed him." This is veneration.
      By praying through Mary, we are not taking away focus from Jesus. In Luke 1:46-49 Mary says, "My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the lowly state of his maidservant;
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed." Praying through Mary magnifies the focus on Jesus and magnifies Him. It's like asking someone for prayers. When you ask someone to pray for you, are you worshipping them? It's no different with Mary. When we pray to Mary, we ask her to pray for us to God, and her soul magnifies Him. Then, we add some respect, or veneration, not worship. If you knew someone was praying for you would you not thank them?
         Thus, we do not worship Mary or take our focus off God to put on Mary, but we pray through Mary, and venerate her, not worship her.
God Bless!

Okay, thanks for the clarification. So they've become like conduits to God... kind of like proxy servers Why not give the poor guys and gals a break?... they've done the hard work and got themselves to Heaven and instead of chillaxing they have to spend eternity praying on behalf of millions of Catholics

But I get what you're saying about the difference between reverence and worship because it's similar with Buddhism. Buddhism is an atheistic 'religion', with reverence for a wise teacher rather than worship of a God, but there is widespread confusion about that among the ignorant (which includes me) which isn't helped by the bowing, chanting, and graven images of the Buddha. I'm not a fully-fledged Buddhist... I don't believe in any form of afterlife including reincarnation, but I do see a lot of wisdom in it in practical terms for this life. So when I go to a Buddhist temple I still feel decidedly uncomfortable when it comes to that part of the proceedings... intellectually I know it's only reverence, but it does give the impression of being more like worship, especially since I don't speak the language of the chants and therefore don't know what they're saying.

[Edwardo Piet]

You know what, Eddie?  Dripshit is the dumbest motherfucker on these boards....but you are challenging him for the title.


By the way this bullshit mary cult was only allowed at the Council of Ephesus in the mid 5th century.  Apparently even bullshit takes time to get going!

I have question, are you a Satanist just wondering because you act like one?

That's hardly an insult.

[Drich]

The Son of Man will give you that food. He is the only one qualified by God the Father to give it to you.”

Is not in the Bible.

sure it does:

John 6:27 But earthly food spoils and ruins. So don’t work to get that kind of food. But work to get the food that stays good and gives you eternal life. The Son of Man will give you that food. He is the only one qualified by God the Father to give it to you.”

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV

Lets get through this one point before you open up a different can of worms

[Drich]

Ohhh!  Christians arguing over who the "true Christian" is!

Back the faith train up, I am not arguing which one is the true christianity. I am arguing non are true... I am pointing out his faith is just another religion, just one of 33K. I am doing this by show error and flaws in his core theology.

(then the question should be.. how do any of you monkeys make it to heaven if there isn't a true form of christianity, but I will go with whatever you come up with)

[Drich]

I'm not a Christian any more but to whatever extent I can still have doubts about it from time to time, that doesn't extend to Catholicism. In other words since I was indoctrinated a Protestant I'd never give Catholicism the time of day even if I did return to Christianity...  much less as an atheist. Too much idolatry... turning every man and his dog into tantamount to a god to be worshipped (saints and the virgin mary), not to mention the reliance on graven images. Sorry about that... just letting out a bit of my inbuilt (read indoctrinated) Protestant anti-Catholicism even though I'm not a Christian any more

Catholics don't worship statues or worship saints, that's a common myth among protestants.
First, where are you getting worship? The definition of pray is "1) to utter petition to God, 2) to make a fervent request, 3) to beseech, implore, 4) to make a devout or earnest request for." Where in the definition do you see the word worship or anything like worship? To pray is to make a request or petition to God. When we pray to God, we are uttering a petition to Him, and when we pray to Mary and the saints we are making an earnest or devout request for prayers from Mary and the saints. In the medieval times, when people would say "I pray you would do this," were they worshipping whoever they were talking to?
        
The Seventh General Council shows the difference between venerating Mary and worshipping God. It showed that Latria - is adoration that is given to the trinity alone, and always refers to God (John 16:2, Romans 9:4, Heb 9:1-6), and hyper-dulia - which is veneration to Mary. There is a difference. The bible also shows this difference. Take a look at Exodus 18:7, saying, "then Moses went out to meet his father in law, and bowed down and kissed him." This is veneration.
      By praying through Mary, we are not taking away focus from Jesus. In Luke 1:46-49 Mary says, "My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the lowly state of his maidservant;
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed." Praying through Mary magnifies the focus on Jesus and magnifies Him. It's like asking someone for prayers. When you ask someone to pray for you, are you worshipping them? It's no different with Mary. When we pray to Mary, we ask her to pray for us to God, and her soul magnifies Him. Then, we add some respect, or veneration, not worship. If you knew someone was praying for you would you not thank them?
         Thus, we do not worship Mary or take our focus off God to put on Mary, but we pray through Mary, and venerate her, not worship her.
God Bless!

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's idolatry sport. Even the atheists see this. Thankfully Idolatry is not the unforgivable sin.

[Drich]

What? Did you forget this horrifying thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbYWhdLO43Q
?

I was searching the Internet high and low for that video so I could post it here!  Lol.  I couldn't remember what the product was called.  I've heard nothing but good things about it, actually!

kind made my own out of a foot stool : and it works wonders. like greases lighting. (with thunder/sound)