The sad future of the democratic party

[Crunchy]

He's got plenty going for him, people are just having trouble acknowledging what those things are, to themselves or others (take your pick), in their america, today.  They'd rather imagine that he ran unopposed, or that people didn't know what they were voting for or on, or any number of other equally ludicrous explanations...whatever it takes to avoid the obvious but uncomfortable.

I guess I don't have your faith in the wisdom of the average person. People en mass quite often behave like sheep and morons coming into great wealth and power are not unheard of. The history books are full of this, but if you want to believe that Trump is some sort of genius who ran a brilliant campaign, have at it.

“The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”
Churchill

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, obviously, plenty of average people are racist shitlords.....but, to be fair, that doesn't prevent them from arriving at collective wisdom in other areas, if it did, we'd be in a sad state today.  

I'm not sure why you think I'm suffering from any sort of admiration for Trump, I'm simply suggesting that he spoke to something people wanted to hear, whether they lie to pollsters (and themselves) about it or not, lol. That his message...as terrible as it may be to believe, resonated with those people more stongly than clintons. It wasn;t as if she didn;t have one, it wasn;t as if ther were no choices to be had, or even a choice not to participate. A significant portion of americans -wanted- this...they liked what they heard. He didn't invent american bigotry and xenophobia, he just plugged in....accidentally, intentionally, it hardly matters now.

[vorlon13]

I could see myself writing in "Martha Coakley" for every democrat race in 2018, but I think the local and national dem poohbahs are too fucking stupid to make the connection.

[noname]

There is a new movement "Justice democrats" trying to remedy this problem.

[Crunchy]

Well, obviously, plenty of average people are racist shitlords.....but, to be fair, that doesn't prevent them from arriving at collective wisdom in other areas, if it did, we'd be in a sad state today.  

I'm not sure why you think I'm suffering from any sort of admiration for Trump, I'm simply suggesting that he spoke to something people wanted to hear, whether they lie to pollsters (and themselves) about it or not, lol.  That his message...as terrible as it may be to believe, resonated with those people more stongly than clintons.  It wasn;t as if she didn;t have one, it wasn;t as if ther were no choices to be had, or even a choice not to participate.  A significant portion of americans -wanted- this...they liked what they heard.  He didn't invent american bigotry and xenophobia, he just plugged in....accidentally, intentionally, it hardly matters now.

I'm not suggesting that the majority of people voted for Trump because they are racist. I think that is one of the liberal mistakes about the election. I'm saying that Trump benefited from a long running conservative smear campaign against Obama, the Clintons, politicians in general and the government specifically and that Trump had nothing to do with this. He merely stepped in and benefited from a disinformation strategy.

My wife and I spent a month in the US just prior to the election (I'm Canadian) on a road trip. I specifically played dumb and asked everyone I ran into about their thoughts. From cab drivers to waiters to gas station attendants to property owners to boat owners to Hotel management  etc.. I ran into lots of average people (the kind who don't post obsessively on the internet  ) and here is a sampling of what I heard as they "explained" to me why the system was dirty and needed Trump.

The Clintons are the most corrupt people on earth. (Most common belief I ran into)
"House of Cards" is based on the Clintons and the Clintons have had people killed who oppose them
The Clinton foundation is a money making scam and the Clintons draw money directly from this "charity"
Obama caused the financial meltdown
Obama caused the current massive unemployment
More than 50% of Americans live off welfare and that just can't continue
Obama is the cause of all the current racial tensions in the US
The "liberal" lifestyle is destroying the moral fabric of society
The media is all liberal and are working against the interests of America
Hillary caused Bengazi because she hates America
etc...

Almost every single person I ran into believed one or more of the above nonsensical ideas with none of it having to do with racism or sexism. I realize that this is anecdotal, but many polls show frighteningly large numbers of people believing clearly false information like that above. This is what won Trump the election IMO. The populace was primed for an outsider based on a completely false version of reality. Trump did help (and continues to help) in creating these false narratives (like the unemployment rate being around 40%) but Trump did not do this as a strategy while knowing the actual truth. He's not that smart. I think he actually believes the same nonsense that those who voted for him believe.

[The Grand Nudger]

I'm not suggesting that the majority of people voted for Trump because they are racist. I think that is one of the liberal mistakes about the election. 

No, you;'re not, and neither am I, I'm flat out saying that they are, not suggesting that they may be.  Doesn;t have much to do with my being a liberal, since I;m not a liberal by american political parlance nor do I vote for the "liberals".  

I'm saying that Trump benefited from a long running conservative smear campaign against Obama, the Clintons, politicians in general and the government specifically and that Trump had nothing to do with this. He merely stepped in and benefited from a disinformation strategy.

Sure, he absolutely did.... he also benefitted from the fact that plenty of average americans are racist shitlords.

My wife and I spent a month in the US just prior to the election (I'm Canadian) on a road trip. I specifically played dumb and asked everyone I ran into about their thoughts. From cab drivers to waiters to gas station attendants to property owners to boat owners to Hotel management  etc.. I ran into lots of average people (the kind who don't post obsessively on the internet  ) and here is a sampling of what I heard as they "explained" to me why the system was dirty and needed Trump.

The Clintons are the most corrupt people on earth. (Most common belief I ran into)
"House of Cards" is based on the Clintons and the Clintons have had people killed who oppose them
The Clinton foundation is a money making scam and the Clintons draw money directly from this "charity"
Obama caused the financial meltdown
Obama caused the current massive unemployment
More than 50% of Americans live off welfare and that just can't continue
Obama is the cause of all the current racial tensions in the US
The "liberal" lifestyle is destroying the moral fabric of society
The media is all liberal and are working against the interests of America
Hillary caused Bengazi because she hates America
etc...

They lied to pollsters too....so don;t feel bad.  It's easier to rationalize ones antipathies or apathies if you can manufacture a socially acceptable front for either.  You'll notice that none of those are actually arguments for voting -for- Trump....just not voting for the clintons (or obama..because..IDK, maybe they thought he was running?). They voted for trump....end of. They put his policies in the white house. End of. Nothing they can conjure up, real or imagined, absolves them of their personal responsibility for doing that.

Almost every single person I ran into believed one or more of the above nonsensical ideas with none of it having to do with racism or sexism. I realize that this is anecdotal, but many polls show frighteningly large numbers of people believing clearly false information like that above. This is what won Trump the election IMO. The populace was primed for an outsider based on a completely false version of reality. Trump did help (and continues to help) in creating these false narratives (like the unemployment rate being around 40%) but Trump did not do this as a strategy while knowing the actual truth. He's not that smart. I think he actually believes the same nonsense that those who voted for him believe.

They also believe that mexicans are criminal takers ruining our country and stealing our jobs....and that someone needs to stand up for the oppressed white male, preferably the christian ones.

Simply calling a racist a racist, or racist policies racist policies has become taboo..and why, because someone thinks it lost someone else an election. Well golly gee.........let;s shut our mouths about it for fear that if we object...the racists might end up running the country or something, lol.

[Crunchy]

I'm not suggesting that the majority of people voted for Trump because they are racist. I think that is one of the liberal mistakes about the election. 

No, you;'re not, and neither am I, I'm flat out saying that they are, not suggesting that they may be.  Doesn;t have much to do with my being a liberal, since I;m not a liberal by american political parlance nor do I vote for the "liberals".  

Well this is the core of our disagreement then. You think they're all racist but I don't.  While I understand that Trump did certainly get the racist vote, I think those people voted republican previously anyway. Those aren't the people that Trump got to switch.  I believe the larger factor is that a huge number of Americans are misinformed and fell for the political theater of Bengazi, Whitewhiter, George Soros as evil overlord, Global warming is a hoax, the mainstream media are liberals who want to destroy America, Government is the enemy of the people and on and on ad nauseum.

They lied to pollsters too....so don;t feel bad.  It's easier to rationalize ones antipathies or apathies if you can manufacture a socially acceptable front for either.  You'll notice that none of those are actually arguments for voting -for- Trump....just not voting for the clintons (or obama..because..IDK, maybe they thought he was running?). They voted for trump....end of. They put his policies in the white house. End of. Nothing they can conjure up, real or imagined, absolves them of their personal responsibility for doing that. 

They weren't lying. Those are actual beliefs, some espoused by minorities. And yes, I know those aren't reasons to vote for Trump, but you can't expect people to vote for a corrupt murderous person. That's why I said for many people Trump ran basically unopposed in their minds. 
That Trump won simply on racism is a facile argument.   

Simply calling a racist a racist, or racist policies racist policies has become taboo..

Are you kidding? Liberals have basically become bigoteers accusing anyone and everyone of racism/sexism/ageism for any and all disagreement. Political Correctness is alive and well.

[The Grand Nudger]

Well this is the core of our disagreement then. You think they're all racist but I don't.  While I understand that Trump did certainly get the racist vote, I think those people voted republican previously anyway. Those aren't the people that Trump got to switch.  I believe the larger factor is that a huge number of Americans are misinformed and fell for the political theater of Bengazi, Whitewhiter, George Soros as evil overlord, Global warming is a hoax, the mainstream media are liberals who want to destroy America, Government is the enemy of the people and on and on ad nauseum.

Falling for any of that doesn't speak to their racism, while voting for a man who promised to enact racist policies...does.  They didn't have to vote for clinton...or trump. I didn't.

They weren't lying. Those are actual beliefs, some espoused by minorities. And yes, I know those aren't reasons to vote for Trump, but you can't expect people to vote for a corrupt murderous person. That's why I said for many people Trump ran basically unopposed in their minds. 
That Trump won simply on racism is a facile argument.   

We could go with "he won in spite of his racism"...when totally non-racist people voted for a man who promised to enact racist policies..if you like.....but I don't think that;s the case, personally....since they voted for a man who promised to enact racist policies. You telling me they -didn't- like the idea of the wall and mass deportations...banning muslims or the long running "damn furiners took our jyobs!" bit?  He seems to think he has a mandate, and the trumpsters never miss an opportunity to show us how totally not racist they are......lol. They obviously lied to you, with the ommission of any racial motive...but it seems as though they;ve been lying to themselves on that count with some regularity, for some time...so?

"A black guy said some of this stuff" Usual Objection™ noted.

Are you kidding? Liberals have basically become bigoteers accusing anyone and everyone of racism/sexism/ageism for any and all disagreement. Political Correctness is alive and well.

Nothing liberals do or have done excuses or argues against another's racism, you realize?

"Hur durr, I have a problem with political correctness" Usual Objection™ noted.

Look, I get it, you think that calling racists racists may have cost the dems the election, in part. I'm sure it did..because racists don't like to be called racists, apparently. Nevertheless......I see no value in denial in response to a national disgrace.

[noname]

Crunchy
The Clintons are the most corrupt people on earth. (Most common belief I ran into)
"House of Cards" is based on the Clintons and the Clintons have had people killed who oppose them
The Clinton foundation is a money making scam and the Clintons draw money directly from this "charity"
Obama caused the financial meltdown
Obama caused the current massive unemployment
More than 50% of Americans live off welfare and that just can't continue
Obama is the cause of all the current racial tensions in the US
The "liberal" lifestyle is destroying the moral fabric of society
The media is all liberal and are working against the interests of America
Hillary caused Bengazi because she hates America


I kind of agree with the first claim, Hillary Clinton has proven herself to be a corrupt, bought corporatist. But all the other claims (except for the third claim, which I wouldn't find surprising) are just fucking ridiculous.

[The Grand Nudger]

She absolutely is a corrupt and bought corporatist, and trump voters - we're told-  prefer racism to corrupt bought corporatism.....though, it looks like they'll be getting both after all, lol.  

Value-added governance.