The undeniable miracle at Fatima

[Edwardo Piet]

Oh great another simple minded cretin, just what the world needs. It's definitely lacking in them

[Crossless2.0]

  It's shocking to me that adults can think this has some kind of meaningful impact in the world.

You mean aside from the church accountants and the people who benefitted from increased tourism?

[Cecelia]

I've had discussions here before about the miracle of the sun. I find it very convincing and impossible to explain away as something other than a supernatural phenomenon. Someone here even said it was a conspiracy by the government (who was somehow able to predict that the sun would do weird things on that day at that time, months ahead of time) and they had the kids involved.

Except the sun didn't do weird things.

If the sun started doing weird things, everyone on earth (at least where the sun was out) would see it.  Yet that's not what happened.  It was a localized event--which points to no supernatural cause.  If I said last night that the moon started flying around spelling out "OBEY THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER" you would think me nuts.  If 100 other people then said they saw it too, but didn't see what it spelled, you'd think something was going on.  But you wouldn't say it was a miracle from the Flying Spaghetti Monster. And if the church of the flying spaghetti monster confirmed the event, you still wouldn't believe it. Because there were still people on earth who didn't see anything, despite the fact we all see the same moon and if it started moving it would be noticed by everyone.

[Edwardo Piet]

  It's shocking to me that adults can think this has some kind of meaningful impact in the world.

You mean aside from the church accountants and the people who benefitted from increased tourism?

It's not remotely shocking to me because I am extremely used to most people I encounter being stupid as shit.

[pabsta]

What you are requesting has been done for St. Bernadette's incorrupt body.

No, that's not even remotely good enough.  I specifically want Jacinta's body autopsied in a state-of-the-art professional environment that cannot be manipulated in any way by the RCC, and I want *you* to pay for it out of your own pocket.

You also seem to be having a remarkable amount of difficulty differentiating between ordinary claims such as a fight breaking out at a baseball game, and extraordinary claims such as the sun bobbing around in the sky without being noticed by astronomers.

(Of course, you probably also think that Mary gave birth as a virgin and later got whooshed up into the sky, that Jesus came back from the dead but makes a nice light snack at mass, and that you have something other than insentience awaiting you after your death.  *shrug*)

As someone who doesn't appear to believe in the incorruptibles, and given this phenomenon only occurs with devout Catholics, the question you should be asking yourself is how even a single incorrupt body could exist. It completely defies science no matter who's incorrupt body we are speaking about. They are on display all over Europe for you to go see. I am not the one having a problem understanding and believing in them, so it is up to you to go and see them. Next time you schedule a vacation, make it in Europe so you can go see them.

As for differentiating between ordinary and extraordinary claims, that is relative. Atheists seem to categorize many things as extraordinary that others wouldn't. Again, let's assume for the moment that the sun never bobbed up and down in the sky. The question then becomes, why did thousands of people submit testimonies saying they think it did?

---

Another fact that atheists want to avoid is the subject of Jacinta from Fatima being found incorrupt. Another proof for the supernatural that leaves atheists standing there with wide eyes, especially when they realize there is physical proof they can go see themselves. Always demanding proof, but they won't put the remote control down and get off the couch and go see them, afraid of what they might find.

Details:
http://overcomeproblems.com/incorruptibles.htm

So if the body of a heretic or atheist were found to not decompose as expected, would that be a miracle, too?

Yes, that would be a miracle too. But given this phenomena only happens to devout Catholics, you need to ask yourself why. Not a single person in this forum has an answer to that and that's as much.

[LadyForCamus]

Pabsta, have you ever seen a picture of these supposedly incorruptible corpses? They look pretty corrupted to me, lol.

[vorlon13]

Pabsta, have you ever seen a picture of these supposedly incorruptible corpses?  They look pretty corrupted to me, lol.

well, sure.  The ones the priests have buggered . . . .

[pocaracas]

Again, let's assume for the moment that the sun never bobbed up and down in the sky. The question then becomes, why did thousands of people submit testimonies saying they think it did?

Probably for a very similar reason to why thousands of people submit testimonies saying that they were abducted by aliens?
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/abducted_h..._by_aliens

And you're very likely exaggerating that "thousands" number for this particular "miracle".

[pabsta]

An example of the logic presented in this discussion. A conversation after an exhibition baseball game:

We can refine that analogy quite a bit:

Tom (baseball fan): Wow, you missed the exhibition baseball game yesterday! Did you hear about how that player from the Yankees hit the ball so hard that it impacted the moon?
Joe (his atheist friend): That doesn't sound possible.
Tom: Well he did, I was there and I saw him
Joe: Where's your proof?
Tom: What are you talking about! I'm telling you I was there and I saw it, and there was a large crowd there too that saw it!
Joe: Well show me the video where it happened
Tom: It was an exhibition game, so it was not televised. Though there are still shots available of the game and the large crowd
Joe: That's not enough, so I don't believe that player ever literally hit a ball to the moon
Tom: Dude, everyone at the game saw it, including some reporters who interviewed some of the fans about it afterward, and it was confirmed in newspapers the following day!
Joe: Did the newspaper articles contain a photo of the baseball sitting on the moon?
Tom: Well, no, but the articles still confirmed that it happened!
Joe: That's not enough, so I say that I can't believe it unless you provide me more evidence. Not every incident leaves behind detectable evidence, but you can't expect me to accept a claim as implausible as this without physical evidence
Tom: Well in this instance, the player hit the ball to the moon, and the ball got buried in moon dust, so there is no visible ball on the moon or other evidence. But what does that matter when I'm telling you I saw it, and the large crowd there saw it, and it was in the newspapers the following day, with statements from fans confirming they saw it?
Joe: Eyewitness testimony is unreliable. Sorry Tom, whatever you and the crowd think you saw, the batter did not actually and literally hit a baseball all the way to the moon

I have to admit, this was a pretty funny analogy you came up with. But what people in this forum are doing is taking the situation a step further. Because you don't believe something extraordinary happened with the sun, you therefore to logically conclude that NOTHING happened at all. That's like saying in my baseball analogy that because you don't believe the batter took a swipe at the pitcher that therefore the whole game never took place.

The fact remains that SOMETHING dried everyone's clothes within minutes and made them think they were going to die. Thousands of people that don't know each other, both at the site and miles away, have no reason to lie about those facts. If you think they were wrong about the sun, fine, but saying therefore NOTHING happened at all is totally retarded.

[Brian37]

I've had discussions here before about the miracle of the sun. I find it very convincing and impossible to explain away as something other than a supernatural phenomenon. Someone here even said it was a conspiracy by the government (who was somehow able to predict that the sun would do weird things on that day at that time, months ahead of time) and they had the kids involved.

That was a con, nothing more. Not a conspiracy no, but a con yes. Lots of gullible people fell for it and it went global. Really no different a con than Yeti or Big Foot or vampires. If you want to believe crap badly enough you will.

If those who believe this garbage would do a little research on it they would know not all the people attending saw it. Not everyone was buying it. 

The sun in reality as science explains it's behavior DOES NOT behave in the way the con artists claimed it did. 

Staring directly at the sun, NOT A GOOD IDEA, and or pressing  in your eyeballs and rubbing them will produce that illusion of spinning and darting. And or the atmosphere with certain temp, and clouds can bend light and produce the illusion of the sun moving. There are natural explanations for why people fell for it, but there was nothing magical about that day, just tons of gullibility. 

Gullibility is why it sold, nothing more.