The Statler Waldorf Balcony

[Ace Otana]

Wow, such hostility

Aggressive and relentless. My style that be.
I'm never afraid to debate, it's just...most of the time I can't be fucked. But when I do, I go in heavy.

The reason why is very simple, God created everything to bring glory to himself

Sounds like god loves himself too much. Likes to have his ego stroked. Sad really.

People modelling His work week brings glory to Him.

More ego stroking.

People anticipating the coming of the Messiah brings glory to Him.

God loves to have his ego stroked. He sounds like a big attention seeker.

People studying His word brings glory to Him.

*BANG*
Well....there goes my ego-meter.

The chances of man making up a religion that holds such a negative view of man and gives all the credit and glory to someone else seems rather far fetched.

Well your lack of perception has just been made very visible for all to see, because that is exactly what's happened. Stop believing everything you read or hear and listen to yourself for once. Question it. How many religions has man made?. Why does god and his rules and demands differ from person to person?
It don't take a genius to work it out mate.

[Statler Waldorf]

---

Wow, such hostility

Aggressive and relentless. My style that be.
I'm never afraid to debate, it's just...most of the time I can't be fucked. But when I do, I go in heavy.

The reason why is very simple, God created everything to bring glory to himself

Sounds like god loves himself too much. Likes to have his ego stroked. Sad really.

People modelling His work week brings glory to Him.

More ego stroking.

People anticipating the coming of the Messiah brings glory to Him.

God loves to have his ego stroked. He sounds like a big attention seeker.

People studying His word brings glory to Him.

*BANG*
Well....there goes my ego-meter.

The chances of man making up a religion that holds such a negative view of man and gives all the credit and glory to someone else seems rather far fetched.

Well your lack of perception has just been made very visible for all to see, because that is exactly what's happened. Stop believing everything you read or hear and listen to yourself for once. Question it. How many religions has man made?. Why does god and his rules and demands differ from person to person?
It don't take a genius to work it out mate.

---

There is nothing wrong with God bringing glory to Himself. It is wrong for man to bring glory to himself because it is not giving the glory to God. So to say that it is wrong for God to glorify Himself becasue it does not bring glory to God is silly.

Wow, first I get accused of not reading enough and believing it, now I am assused of reading too much and believing it all. Wish people would just make up their minds on here.

[Thor]

There is nothing wrong with God bringing glory to Himself. It is wrong for man to bring glory to himself because it is not giving the glory to God. So to say that it is wrong for God to glorify Himself becasue it does not bring glory to God is silly.

Can "God" do anything wrong?

[Ace Otana]

There is nothing wrong with God bringing glory to Himself.

Stroking your own ego is considered a very sad thing to do. If god doesn't have a problem worshipping himself, then fine. Just don't expect me to stoke his over-sized ego.

It is wrong for man to bring glory to himself because it is not giving the glory to God.

It's wrong for us to stroke our own egos but to stroke god's enormous ego (which seems to be bigger than himself) is a must? Fucking why?! Think god gets jealous too easily and needs constant ego stroking to make him feel better. Once again, that's just sad.

So to say that it is wrong for God to glorify Himself

I didn't say it was wrong, I said it's very sad.

Wow, first I get accused of not reading enough and believing it, now I am assused of reading too much and believing it all.

I don't recall saying that. Please point out where I said that.
I never said you read too much. You can never read too much. I said don't believe everything you read or hear. I said that you should QUESTION IT!

Wish people would just make up their minds on here

I wish you would take more time to read posts. Read above.

[orogenicman]

For the purposes of your argument, please define observational time and calculated time.

[Skipper]

As you believe in creationism, and therefore not evolution, can you explain why we have:

1. VOMERONASAL ORGAN (VNO), or Jacobson’s organ: a tiny hole on each side of the nasal bridge that is considered to be connected to nonfunctional chemical receptors. Could be all that is left from our once great ability to detect pheromones.

2. EXTRINSIC EAR MUSCLES: These three muscles most likely made it possible for our ancestors to move their ears independently of their heads, as rabbits and dogs do. We still have them, which is why most people can learn to wiggle their ears.

3. WISDOM TEETH: Early humans had to chew a lot of plants to get enough calories to survive, making another row of molars helpful, but unless you chew a lot of branches, these will eventually come out in a painful procedure. Only about 5 percent of the population has a healthy set of these third molars.

4. NECK RIB: A set of cervical ribs—possibly leftovers from the age of reptiles, still appear in less than 1 percent of the population. They often cause nerve and artery problems.

5. THIRD EYELID: A common ancestor of birds and mammals may have had a membrane for protecting the eye and sweeping out debris. Humans retain only a tiny fold in the inner corner of the eye, exactly there where you always catch a spec of dust or debris.


6. DARWIN’S POINT: A small folded point of skin toward the top of each ear is occasionally found in modern humans. It may be a remnant of a larger shape that helped focus distant sounds.

7. SUBCLAVIUS MUSCLE: This small muscle stretching under the shoulder from the first rib to the collarbone would be useful if humans still walked on all fours. Some people have one, some have none, and a few have two.

8. PALMARIS MUSCLE: This long, narrow muscle runs from the elbow to the wrist and is missing in 11 percent of modern humans. It may once have been important for hanging and climbing. Surgeons harvest it for reconstructive surgery.

9. MALE NIPPLES: Lactiferous ducts form well before testosterone causes sex differentiation in a fetus. Men have mammary tissue that can be stimulated to produce milk. This just makes me angry; I’ve been spending a fortune on milk all these years! I’ll have to test this tomorrow with my Special K.

10. ERECTOR PILI: Bundles of smooth muscle fibers allow animals to puff up their fur for insulation or to intimidate others. Humans retain this ability (goose bumps are the indicator) but have obviously lost most of the fur.

11. APPENDIX: This narrow, muscular tube attached to the large intestine served as a special area to digest cellulose when the human diet consisted more of plant matter than animal protein. It also produces some white blood cells. Annually, more than 300,000 Americans have an appendectomy.

12. BODY HAIR: Brows help keep sweat from the eyes, and male facial hair may play a role in sexual selection, but apparently most of the hair left on the human body serves no function.

13. THIRTEENTH RIB: Our closest cousins, chimpanzees and gorillas, have an extra set of ribs. Most of us have 12, but 8 percent of adults have the extras.

14. PLANTARIS MUSCLE: Often mistaken for a nerve by freshman medical students, the muscle was useful to other primates for grasping with their feet. It has disappeared altogether in 9 percent of the population.

15. MALE UTERUS: A remnant of an undeveloped female reproductive organ hangs off the male prostate gland.

16. FIFTH TOE: Lesser apes use all their toes for grasping or clinging to branches. Humans need mainly the big toe for balance while walking upright, the other four are for holding when you slam them on a coffee table at night!

17. FEMALE VAS DEFERENS: What might become sperm ducts in males become the epoophoron in females, a cluster of useless dead-end tubules near the ovaries.

18. PYRAMIDALIS MUSCLE: More than 20 percent of us lack this tiny, triangular pouch-like muscle that attaches to the pubic bone. It may be a relic from pouched marsupials.

19. COCCYX: These fused vertebrae are all that’s left of the tail that most mammals still use for balance and communication. Our hominid ancestors lost the need for a tail before they began walking upright. All they’re good for now is give us painful falls on the butt.

20. PARANASAL SINUSES: The nasal sinuses of our early ancestors may have been lined with odor receptors that gave a heightened sense of smell, which aided survival. No one knows why we retain these perhaps troublesome mucus-lined cavities, except to make the head lighter and to warm and moisten the air we breathe.

Why did god give us all these pointless body parts?

All taken from http://www.amazingposts.com/2008/08/20-p...-need.html (I was just going to post about the appendix, male nipples and coccyx but a full list of 20 things (some that even I didnt know we're pointless) seemed more fun)

[Statler Waldorf]

There is nothing wrong with God bringing glory to Himself.

Stroking your own ego is considered a very sad thing to do. If god doesn't have a problem worshipping himself, then fine. Just don't expect me to stoke his over-sized ego.

It is wrong for man to bring glory to himself because it is not giving the glory to God.

It's wrong for us to stroke our own egos but to stroke god's enormous ego (which seems to be bigger than himself) is a must? Fucking why?! Think god gets jealous too easily and needs constant ego stroking to make him feel better. Once again, that's just sad.

So to say that it is wrong for God to glorify Himself

I didn't say it was wrong, I said it's very sad.

Wow, first I get accused of not reading enough and believing it, now I am assused of reading too much and believing it all.

I don't recall saying that. Please point out where I said that.
I never said you read too much. You can never read too much. I said don't believe everything you read or hear. I said that you should QUESTION IT!

Wish people would just make up their minds on here

I wish you would take more time to read posts. Read above.

Actually you are unable to worship God without Him first renewing your heart, so I am not surprised at all that you won't worship Him no matter how you "justify" it.

You may think it's sad, but that's your own opinion.

---

There is nothing wrong with God bringing glory to Himself. It is wrong for man to bring glory to himself because it is not giving the glory to God. So to say that it is wrong for God to glorify Himself becasue it does not bring glory to God is silly.

Can "God" do anything wrong?

How do you define wrong?

---

---

As you believe in creationism, and therefore not evolution, can you explain why we have:

1. VOMERONASAL ORGAN (VNO), or Jacobson’s organ: a tiny hole on each side of the nasal bridge that is considered to be connected to nonfunctional chemical receptors. Could be all that is left from our once great ability to detect pheromones.

2. EXTRINSIC EAR MUSCLES: These three muscles most likely made it possible for our ancestors to move their ears independently of their heads, as rabbits and dogs do. We still have them, which is why most people can learn to wiggle their ears.

3. WISDOM TEETH: Early humans had to chew a lot of plants to get enough calories to survive, making another row of molars helpful, but unless you chew a lot of branches, these will eventually come out in a painful procedure. Only about 5 percent of the population has a healthy set of these third molars.

4. NECK RIB: A set of cervical ribs—possibly leftovers from the age of reptiles, still appear in less than 1 percent of the population. They often cause nerve and artery problems.

5. THIRD EYELID: A common ancestor of birds and mammals may have had a membrane for protecting the eye and sweeping out debris. Humans retain only a tiny fold in the inner corner of the eye, exactly there where you always catch a spec of dust or debris.


6. DARWIN’S POINT: A small folded point of skin toward the top of each ear is occasionally found in modern humans. It may be a remnant of a larger shape that helped focus distant sounds.

7. SUBCLAVIUS MUSCLE: This small muscle stretching under the shoulder from the first rib to the collarbone would be useful if humans still walked on all fours. Some people have one, some have none, and a few have two.

8. PALMARIS MUSCLE: This long, narrow muscle runs from the elbow to the wrist and is missing in 11 percent of modern humans. It may once have been important for hanging and climbing. Surgeons harvest it for reconstructive surgery.

9. MALE NIPPLES: Lactiferous ducts form well before testosterone causes sex differentiation in a fetus. Men have mammary tissue that can be stimulated to produce milk. This just makes me angry; I’ve been spending a fortune on milk all these years! I’ll have to test this tomorrow with my Special K.

10. ERECTOR PILI: Bundles of smooth muscle fibers allow animals to puff up their fur for insulation or to intimidate others. Humans retain this ability (goose bumps are the indicator) but have obviously lost most of the fur.

11. APPENDIX: This narrow, muscular tube attached to the large intestine served as a special area to digest cellulose when the human diet consisted more of plant matter than animal protein. It also produces some white blood cells. Annually, more than 300,000 Americans have an appendectomy.

12. BODY HAIR: Brows help keep sweat from the eyes, and male facial hair may play a role in sexual selection, but apparently most of the hair left on the human body serves no function.

13. THIRTEENTH RIB: Our closest cousins, chimpanzees and gorillas, have an extra set of ribs. Most of us have 12, but 8 percent of adults have the extras.

14. PLANTARIS MUSCLE: Often mistaken for a nerve by freshman medical students, the muscle was useful to other primates for grasping with their feet. It has disappeared altogether in 9 percent of the population.

15. MALE UTERUS: A remnant of an undeveloped female reproductive organ hangs off the male prostate gland.

16. FIFTH TOE: Lesser apes use all their toes for grasping or clinging to branches. Humans need mainly the big toe for balance while walking upright, the other four are for holding when you slam them on a coffee table at night!

17. FEMALE VAS DEFERENS: What might become sperm ducts in males become the epoophoron in females, a cluster of useless dead-end tubules near the ovaries.

18. PYRAMIDALIS MUSCLE: More than 20 percent of us lack this tiny, triangular pouch-like muscle that attaches to the pubic bone. It may be a relic from pouched marsupials.

19. COCCYX: These fused vertebrae are all that’s left of the tail that most mammals still use for balance and communication. Our hominid ancestors lost the need for a tail before they began walking upright. All they’re good for now is give us painful falls on the butt.

20. PARANASAL SINUSES: The nasal sinuses of our early ancestors may have been lined with odor receptors that gave a heightened sense of smell, which aided survival. No one knows why we retain these perhaps troublesome mucus-lined cavities, except to make the head lighter and to warm and moisten the air we breathe.

Why did god give us all these pointless body parts?

All taken from http://www.amazingposts.com/2008/08/20-p...-need.html (I was just going to post about the appendix, male nipples and coccyx but a full list of 20 things (some that even I didnt know we're pointless) seemed more fun)

---

The old vestigial organ argument eh? We would have seen this same argument in the late 19th, early 20th century- however back then they believed that the body had over 100 of these organs. Now the list is much much shorter because we keep on finding important functions for these sttructures. For example the Appendix aids in the body's ability to fight infection, and the coccyx helps to provide an attachment point for pelvic organs. I would even argue that most modern Evolutionary Biologists will shy away from using this argument, as demonstrated by the Evolutionary Biologist S. R. Scadding's staement,

"Since it is not possible to unambiguously identify useless structures, and since the structure of the argument used is not scientifically valid, I conclude that 'vestigial organs' provide no special evidence for the theory of evolution."

S. R. Scadding, "Do 'Vestigial Organs' Provide Evidence for Evolution?," Evolutionary Theory, vol. 5, p. 173.

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Nope, creation scientists believe in an ice age.

Really?

And how long do they think this Ice Age lasted? And how long ago did it end?

Most creationists believe in one ice age that shortly followed the flood and lasted around 1000 years.

[orogenicman]

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/scadding.html

[theVOID]

Talk Origins wins the internets

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

It's getting really tough to reply to your posts because you keep asserting I disagree with things that I never said I did, and actually pointed out that I do agree wtih. Light moves isotrpically when using the calculated definition of time, we all know this so stop trying to argue this point. Using the observational definition of time it moves an-isotropically, stop trying to use relativity and textbooks to agrue against this because they all use calculated time. The Bible is written using the observational definiton of time, so I am going to view light as propagating using this definition, this is not an erroneous thing to do, as long as I am clear as to which definition I am using.

So it's not so much a scientific theory as much as it is a pseudoscience explaination (what I affectionately refer to as "bullshit") for a young universe because no matter how you slice it, light has always moved at 299,792,458 meters per second - anywhere, at any time, by any method of measurement.
I've never heard of 'observational' time and 'calculated' time as being two distinct things until I started this conversation with you and I have no reason to believe it is anything except a way to explain how light can do something contrary to observation and study to explain how several major branches of science (astronomy and physics) are wrong so young-earths can have a scientific-sounding way to explain their inane worldview.

I think I already pointed out why pointing to annual tree rings is not an appropriate means of disproving the time of the flood, I think most scientists with a knowledge of dendrochronology would agree with me. So you will have to try and find some other evidence.

As you should recall from reading the post you responded to, we weren't discussing the flood.
Most scientists with a knowledge of dendrochronology aren't creationists, so no, the wouldn't agree with you (and yes, there are statistics on that you'll no doubt ignore.)

Reasons the flood cannot happen:
1) NOT ENOUGH WATER on the entire planet to cover all land.
2) The Ark, as described in the bible, can not support all life on earth for any length of time
3) Fossil record does not support a flood
4) Trees and other creatures that could not have survived a worldwide flood are still around

...I could keep going until my eyes turn blue from looking at the screen but that's what I got off the top of my head, but I'll just finish this thought by statig that there would be some evidence that a flood covered the whole planet.
... or plate with a crytal dome over it. Whichever the case may be, after all, things look a little distorted on my corner of the world.

I have not posted a lot of articles (though most of my info does come out of peer-reviewed sources) because they are not written for the lay person. So it's much more effective to summarize the article than just to post the link (as if posting a link proves anything).

I call Bullshit. I eat through scientific journals, books, and media out of boredom. I'm certainly not afraid of looking at the an-istrotropic light horoscope from the alchemy daily.
I'm not even going to start on the hypocracy over denigrating me over using youtube and wikipedia but failing to provide even a link to a ridiculously biased paper by a creationist who wants to prove creationism and not actually do science.

You will have to take up the alleged dating mistakes made in the lab with the actual secular labs that dated the material. All I know is that radio-metric and radiocarbon methods disagree quite often. Just recently a piece of mineralized wood was found in sandstone that geologically dated to 250 million years but the piece of wood dated to around 35,000 years. Sounds like something has got to give to me.

Why would they date the rock to determine the age of the wood or vice versa?
It sounds to me like you want them to disagree - to say nothing over the fact that they don't.