Arguments Against Creator God

[The Grand Nudger]

In a sense God did not deliberate the creation of the universe, it was consequential of his existence. It was spontaneous without fore-thought, but on the other hand it was always fully and completely planned. In the case of Divinity it can be both at once.

b-mine

Um.......?

[GrandizerII]

It's not a theory, first of all. It's just a proposition/belief, just like the God belief.

The cosmos is everything in existence aside from the divine (and the supernatural). It can comprise multiple universes, even infinite number of them, and other "natural" stuff that we have yet to even conceive of.

The cosmos is here, and as I argued in the OP, we can't have non-existence in place of it. Therefore, the cosmos has always been.

Yes, proposition/belief, that's what I meant. Thank you.

So when you say you believe the cosmos have always been here, you mean everything in existence has always been here?

I specifically do think so, yes. I'm an eternalist, so I believe all moments of time exist eternally. Although one can believe the cosmos has always been in one form or another, but not necessarily believe this to be the case for every single thing in existence.

Anything you have to say about my arguments against God?

[Minimalist]

Take for instance, the words of Jesus about himself, he says "I am the first and the last, the beginning and the ending, the alpha and the omega...etc"

Um, jesus never wrote shit.  That crapola was cobbled together by some much later Greek-speaking believer.

[Catholic_Lady]

Yes, proposition/belief, that's what I meant. Thank you.

So when you say you believe the cosmos have always been here, you mean everything in existence has always been here?

I specifically do think so, yes. I'm an eternalist, so I believe all moments of time exist eternally. Although one can believe the cosmos has always been in one form or another, but not necessarily believe this to be the case for every single thing in existence.

Anything you have to say about my arguments against God?

I'm still confused as to what the cosmos are that you refer to. When i google it, it just says its another word for universe (which we know hasnt always been here). You say it's everything in existence. So am i a cosmo?

As to your question, no, because honestly I don't understand them. Right now im just curious about your beliefs.

[GrandizerII]

Which I summarize as follows, - "I don't believe in God because there are a few essential factors which don't make any logical sense."

I wouldn't word it like that, as the wording you use here doesn't clearly distinguish between logic and intuition. And it's not "just a few". There are all sorts of logical problems with a God that is beyond time and space. I only mentioned a very few. Trivializing much?

Fair enough, and you also admitted that we as humans are limited in our understanding. I think we have fallen a long way from our original state of intelligence.

To be accurate, I said our intuition cannot be completely trusted when it comes to the matter of God and existence in general. As for your second sentence, bullshit.

I assume that your religion failed to deliver the details you were entitled to know. None the less, you may persist in finding the answers for yourself in the Bible, you can advance above common religion, science and thinking.

What the hell are you talking about here?

The Impossibility of "Nothingness"

God isn't nothing, so there is no reason to conclude that something came from nothing.

The Creator God is separate from everything else in existence, according to traditional Christianity. If you don't believe in the typical/mainstream Creator God, then this thread wasn't made for you.

The Impossibility of "Something from Nothing"

Things were created by the power or the substance of the Word of God, which is something which goes out from God's mouth and returns to him in whatever form he has thought.

This doesn't debunk the argument. You are talking about a different type of causation here, when my argument is about the material cause that just happens to be non-existent in this "thing" that we call "nothing". Or are you arguing that the material cause just happens to be in God himself? If so, then this argument doesn't debunk your kind of God.

The Word isn't sound in the air, it is the breath, the light and the life of God. It has infinite properties, and it contains wisdom or intelligence, all the possibilities of power and organisation, and the power of life itself, which is able to create a horrendously massive creation, with an infinite number of activities and relations etc.

You are just making things more complicated than they need to be. Whether God or God's Word did the creation is irrelevant. God's Word is still God. And so, you still haven't solved the problem described in my argument.

Basically the Word is as great as God in all of its power. There are many features of the Word which we should discuss in detail, because they give the correct understanding of the nature of matter and how things not only exist, but how they were made.

Ok? Why not list some of them then? Explain how they give a correct understanding of the nature of matter and such.

Religions in general do not get into the nitty gritty of the Bible, they just pretend to have its authority and then trample on its requirements.

Who cares what you think about religions and the Bible? I only want you to address the arguments. Give me valid logic, not theological nonsense.

The Impossibility of Timeless Creation

The concept of time is out of our general capability to reason, and from what I have read in sceintific treatises, our theories are like trying to fly by pulling up on the shoe laces.

Anything to dismiss what modern science has to say just to cling to your God belief, right?

But the Bible gives many clues about time, which are fascinating, without going into detail - it's a big library.

This thread is not about the damned Bible, which is a collection of ancient books written by men who didn't know as much as we do now about the world and everything in it.

However, there are about ten major features about time, (just like there are ten basic laws of God which govern all of creation - both spiritually and physically) one of tose features is that it can be experienced differently. That goes without saying, and it is a topic which has been discussed in some scientific disciplines.

Irrelevant, as the argument is about the impossibility of time being created, not about what time is.

The Bible says that "One day (with the Lord, not with men) is as a thousand years..." and visa versa.

See above.

The ability to have the full options in the experiences of time, depends on the level of intelligence and physical power/energy.

What?

In the case of God, the time rates and experiences of the universe are deliberate equations, of which there are an endless variety, but there are specific and general principles, which govern all of the creation, so that one day and hour equals literal time, no matter where you go. There is a universal consistency.

Ok, and? How does this address the argument I provided?

BTW, all creations, have a simple side and a complex side. For instance the simple cell, isn't simple at all, but is as complex as all of the knowledge in the world at this time.

And?

We already accept the simple side of time, and that's generally what is discussed in science.

And?

But as far as Divinity is concerned time is not a constraint, but one (intergrating) tool of an endless number of tools, that have been incorporated.

Do you really believe you're making any sense at all? I'm having a hard time following your train of thought. What are you talking about? And what does this have to do with the arguments against God provided in the OP?

We are allowed to discuss the realm of God, in the persistent context of our limited capability, as you have already pointed out.

Yeah, you're allowed that. So let's please discuss the arguments instead of going off track here and there.

The Impossibility of Mindful Creation

You've bought up some interesting points here, and they are complex.

In a sense God did not deliberate the creation of the universe, it was consequential of his existence. It was spontaneous without fore-thought, but on the other hand it was always fully and completely planned. In the case of Divinity it can be both at once.

So you concede that this is a logical contradiction, but that since this is God, this is allowed, right? Can God logically cease to become God as well?

Take for instance, the words of Jesus about himself, he says "I am the first and the last, the beginning and the ending, the alpha and the omega...etc"

You know what? You're just wasting my time with this theological nonsense. If you're not going to make an attempt to use logic properly, forget it. Find someone else to discuss theology with. I'm not interested.

He did not say "I make beginnings and endings" although that is true, but he is both the beginning and ending simultaneously. Go figure that one out.

It's all very interesting, and we will inevitably discuss the details.

No, please don't. Thank you in advance.

[Mystic]

The Impossibility of "Nothingness"

If the Creator God exists, then the Creator God supposedly created everything else in existence. This means that, when nothing other than God existed, there was only God, with "nothing" initially in place of everything else that existed (remember: the Creator God is supposed to be separate from everything else in existence). But for this "nothing" to exist, it has to be something. For to exist is to be. Yet, how can something that is not and yet is (simultaneously) be logical? It is not logical. Therefore, logically speaking, there has always been something alongside the Creator God. Therefore, the Creator God did not create everything else in existence. Therefore, the Creator God does not exist.

You bring an interesting point, while it disproves traditional concepts of God a lot of Theists hold, the truth is God is everything by being a witness to all things, and brings them to existence through his own life, nothing exists outside of him, everything depends on him but he know what nothing was in his knowledge, which is how he witness all things, through his knowledge of what he is not and what he is, and through these two (light and darkness) he created everything that is, and created all forms, for he is a witness to all things as far they point to God and as they are not him. 

I hope we can discuss this in more details if you don't understand what I am saying.

And physical existence is not real, the true existence is spiritual, you can't define existence through five senses, it's stupid and irrational to do so,  whatever exists, real existence, true life, that is absolute life, and everything else has life to degrees as they relate to it in intensity of their perception and luminosity.

God is all that exists, nothing exists outside of him.

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The Impossibility of "Something from Nothing"

If the Creator God exists, then the Creator God supposedly created everything else in existence out of nothing. But to create anything out of nothing (or for anything to pop up out of nothing, for that matter), there has to be a "nothing" out of which the thing being created (or popping out) arises. But even if we grant that "nothing" can exist (though I argued in the previous argument that it cannot), it possesses no material whatsoever from which anything can arise, for it is supposed to be nothing. Therefore, because things exist, they have at least originated in something that has always existed. The Creator God, being separate from everything else in existence, cannot be that material origin. Therefore, the Creator God cannot logically create anything out of nothing. Therefore, the Creator God did not create anything. Therefore, the Creator God does not exist.

[/quote]

Dear, he created everything from his own witnessing vision of himself and non-existence, that is by knowledge of what he is, he knews what he is not, so you can say he created everything out of truth of what he is,  and everything perishes save that which is directed towards God, his face.

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The Impossibility of Timeless Creation

If the Creator God exists, then the Creator God supposedly created time itself. But the act of creating, or doing anything for that matter, already implies a passage of time occurring. To create time is to create time within time. Therefore, time has always been and could not have been created. Therefore, the Creator God did not create time. Therefore, negating the classical definition of the Creator God, the Creator God does not exist (if the Creator God is supposed to create everything else in existence, including time).

[/quote]

Light of time and eternity are related in that, time get's it's reality from eternity. Eternity is absolute foreverness, but time didn't always exist, and this has been proven many times on these boards.

The premise is right, it requires passage of time to create, but it also happens to be that his will is an act of creation with initializing time. So it happens together, creating and time, time doesn't need to proceed it.

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The Impossibility of Mindful Creation

If the Creator God exists, then the Creator God supposedly exercised the divine mind to "think" everything else into existence. To exercise the mind is to imply a passage of time. Otherwise, it would be a spontaneous mindless act. Yet, if we grant the possibility of timeless creation (and I have argued otherwise in the previous argument), then there was no time to exercise the mind before creation. Rather, the creation would be the outcome of something akin to some hypothetical "super computer software" that contains infinite information and acts spontaneously upon them. It is a mindless act, and not a mindful one. Therefore, the Creator God did not mindfully create anything into existence outside of time. Therefore, the mind is not a possible requirement for creating everything in existence aside from itself. Some things, at least, were mindlessly created. Therefore, the Creator God does not exist (as per the definition of the Creator God).

[/quote]

See above.

[LadyForCamus]

I think the real issue is that why do theists make up explanations for things that are yet unknown?

My issue currently is that the OP made a claim, saying we reject all other explanations. I'm still waiting to hear what those explanations are.

Do you take issue with the idea of an eternal cosmos?  That existence has always existed in some form, because non-existence as a 'state of affairs,' so to speak, is logically impossible?

[Mystic]

My issue currently is that the OP made a claim, saying we reject all other explanations. I'm still waiting to hear what those explanations are.

Do you take issue with the idea of an eternal cosmos?  That existence has always existed in some form, because non-existence as a 'state of affairs,' so to speak, is logically impossible?

It's actually impossible for any degree of non-existence to be the default. All-Existence is the only existence possible. Any argument for why non-existence is irrational as a default will prove the same is true of any speck of non-existence as a default.

The OP stated two premises that prove God. There can't be any amount of non-existence with existence, that is impossible, because non-existence doesn't exist. This proves all-existence is what truly exists, and so how do we exist, live, and die? This is a good question. The question all points to what religions point to.

[GrandizerII]

I specifically do think so, yes. I'm an eternalist, so I believe all moments of time exist eternally. Although one can believe the cosmos has always been in one form or another, but not necessarily believe this to be the case for every single thing in existence.

Anything you have to say about my arguments against God?

I'm still confused as to what the cosmos are that you refer to. When i google it, it just says its another word for universe (which we know hasnt always been here). You say it's everything in existence. So am i a cosmo?

As to your question, no, because honestly I don't understand them. Right now im just curious about your beliefs.

I'm sorry, but I don't know how better to explain what I mean by the Cosmos. The Cosmos is everything in existence, excluding God. Yes, people have varying definitions of this and that, but I'm trying to help you out here by giving you one definition that I adhere to. No, you're not the whole Cosmos. You are a part of it. Using some basic mathematics set terminology, the Cosmos is the set, and we are the various elements of it.

About this local universe that you and I are observing: actually, it's not necessarily true what you're saying. With the Big Bang, the expansion of the universe was started, but the theory doesn't actually state/imply that this universe had a beginning to its existence.

[LadyForCamus]

Apologies CL; I see you and Grand are already into this, lol.