*trigger warning* What if atheism's not all it seems?

[J a c k]

“I’ve just seen some flaws in atheism...”

Lol I don’t believe for a second that this dude was atheist.

[Whateverist]

Hi, all

I used to frequent these forums just over two years ago when I was a staunch atheist myself - I used to post anti-religion memes on Facebook, thought Richard Dawkins was super cool, laughed at the *obviously* intellectually inferior religious fools (because the only measure of one's intelligence is whether they refute a god and submit themselves to the great and glorious concept of ~rationalism~ - right?), and generally, I acted like a very proper atheist.

However I do agree with you that some atheist people do seem to be a bit too preoccupied and even upset about other people believing. People like that do indeed remind me of the more extreme religious folks That try to force their beliefs down your throat through name calling and mockery. Two sides of the same coin with these type of people, so I agree with you there.

You were a shitty atheist.

Ha, so there are levels of goodness and properness for an atheist and how they conduct themselves? Sounds suspiciously like other world views that you seem to disagree with.

As for the good and bad concept existing: Because we still live in a society which has religious concepts entrenched in our culture, we don't see that good and bad are concepts which at a fundamental level were heavily influenced by religion. Things like helping those who are needy and putting others before ourselves. And even though religion is starting to die, these parts of it have still survived even though we now often mistakenly think they are nothing do with religion. Imagine no religion at all and just a cold Darwinian style society which never had religion - how do you define good and bad?

By your own admission you were a shitty atheist, meaning you behaved arrogantly and with little self reflection before .. exactly the kind of atheist C_L was saying are the counterpart to the worst sort of theists.  I stand behind what I said and I'm surprised if you see that as an ad hominem.

[Angrboda]

I'm curious, PhilosophicalZebra, if it were shown that believing that 2 + 2 = 5 led to improved mental well-being, would you commit yourself to believing that 2 + 2 = 5?

You seem more concerned with the consequences of believing than you do with whether or not the belief is true.

[Catholic_Lady]

However I do agree with you that some atheist people do seem to be a bit too preoccupied and even upset about other people believing. People like that do indeed remind me of the more extreme religious folks That try to force their beliefs down your throat through name calling and mockery. Two sides of the same coin with these type of people, so I agree with you there.

You were a shitty atheist.

Ha, so there are levels of goodness and properness for an atheist and how they conduct themselves? Sounds suspiciously like other world views that you seem to disagree with.

As for the good and bad concept existing: Because we still live in a society which has religious concepts entrenched in our culture, we don't see that good and bad are concepts which at a fundamental level were heavily influenced by religion. Things like helping those who are needy and putting others before ourselves. And even though religion is starting to die, these parts of it have still survived even though we now often mistakenly think they are nothing do with religion. Imagine no religion at all and just a cold Darwinian style society which never had religion - how do you define good and bad?

By your own admission you were a shitty atheist, meaning you behaved arrogantly and with little self reflection before .. exactly the kind of atheist C_L was saying are the counterpart to the worst sort of theists.  I stand behind what I said and I'm surprised if you see that as an ad hominem.

He's gotten a lot of crap for his OP, but I commend him for admitting his faults.

[The Grand Nudger]

My point is: you cannot prove the latter to be true. Nor can I prove the former to be true. 

I'll do you one better, I'll offer you a simple experiment that you can perform for yourself.  Go grab your magic book.  Turn to a page with god in it, and put your thumb on that page.  Now, go ahead and get back to me when god flits off the page and starts doing shit irl. Shit, including granting meaning to the world. Meanwhile, I'm sitting here in a world with plenty of meaning, not believing the shit you think can be extrapolated from an "atheistic worldview" any more than I believe in gods.

I'll wait.

The "what is morality without god" thing has been done to death. It's not as if there aren't a selection of non-god answers to choose from. How would -you- decide what was good or bad -with- god? Just whatever god happens to say, or some other stuff? The "other stuff" is available to theists and atheists alike.

[purplepurpose]

My point is: you cannot prove the latter to be true. Nor can I prove the former to be true. 

I'll do you one better, I'll offer you a simple experiment that you can perform for yourself.  Go grab your magic book.  Turn to a page with god in it, and put your thumb on that page.  Now, go ahead and get back to me when god flits off the page and starts doing shit irl.  Shit, including granting meaning to the world.  Meanwhile, I'm sitting here in a world with plenty of meaning, not believing the shit you think can be extrapolated from an "atheistic worldview" any more than I believe in gods.

I'll wait.

From what I have heard from believers. Imaginary God with AK-47 waiting for you after funeral is an excellent motivation to behave.

[Whateverist]

I'll do you one better, I'll offer you a simple experiment that you can perform for yourself.  Go grab your magic book.  Turn to a page with god in it, and put your thumb on that page.  Now, go ahead and get back to me when god flits off the page and starts doing shit irl.  Shit, including granting meaning to the world.  Meanwhile, I'm sitting here in a world with plenty of meaning, not believing the shit you think can be extrapolated from an "atheistic worldview" any more than I believe in gods.

I'll wait.

From what I have heard from believers. Imaginary God with AK-47 waiting for you after funeral is an excellent motivation to behave.

You don't know Khem too well.  He'd drop that sucker before He ever got a round off, and he'd do it in rhythm.

[brewer]

"Tell me exactly how god gives the universe greater meaning."

It give the universe greater meaning because if it were to exist it would mean the following: We may one day be reunited with our family members and friends who have passed on; there will be justice and judgments for both the good and bad; we are each of value, indispensable, and worthy of love; and the world was created with some greater purpose in mind rather than just from a sheer cold happenstance - to name just a few. On the contrary, and if you disagree please provide a solid argument, nothing more than the following can be extrapolated from an atheistic work view: we're all just animals who have no real significance in this world, we are all going to die and never return, nothing we ever do will ever really have any lasting meaning, and the world is built on nothing more than cold, random forces.

My point is: you cannot prove the latter to be true. Nor can I prove the former to be true. But of the two, which do you think may be a little better both for the individual and society as a whole when all is considered? Both the atheists are theists are taking leaps of faith when they make statements of certainty but at least the theists are doing so in the hope of a better day and trying to be optimistic. How terrible!

All I hear is that you need the fantasy to feel better about yourself, the world and death. If you need it fine by me. But you need to stop preaching and telling me that your fantasy is better than my reality. 

BTW, you got "the latter" wrong.

[The Grand Nudger]

AK's make my face twitch, they certainly don't lead to good behavior.  Heaven help me for the way I am.......

[Catholic_Lady]

Sorry if "trigger warning" seemed a bit of a juvenile phrase, I meant it to be tongue in cheek since obviously coming on to an atheist forum visited by people who are keen to express their views, saying "Hey, maybe you're not totally right." isn't going to attract the most positive responses as I see

I'm not a troll or anything like that, nor am I strongly religious. I've just seen some flaws in atheism over the last few years and am sincerely interested in a discussion about it now that I can no longer see from the point of view of a total atheist myself. Some people gave some decent, thought-provoking answers and I thank you for that. It's a little sad that some jumped to ad hominem attacks, especially when I thought reasoned discussion was valued by you guys.

Anyway, to respond to some of the points made:

"Tell me exactly how god gives the universe greater meaning."

It give the universe greater meaning because if it were to exist it would mean the following: We may one day be reunited with our family members and friends who have passed on; there will be justice and judgments for both the good and bad; we are each of value, indispensable, and worthy of love; and the world was created with some greater purpose in mind rather than just from a sheer cold happenstance - to name just a few. On the contrary, and if you disagree please provide a solid argument, nothing more than the following can be extrapolated from an atheistic work view: we're all just animals who have no real significance in this world, we are all going to die and never return, nothing we ever do will ever really have any lasting meaning, and the world is built on nothing more than cold, random forces.

My point is: you cannot prove the latter to be true. Nor can I prove the former to be true. But of the two, which do you think may be a little better both for the individual and society as a whole when all is considered? Both the atheists are theists are taking leaps of faith when they make statements of certainty but at least the theists are doing so in the hope of a better day and trying to be optimistic. How terrible!

"there is no "atheist community" to which I belong."

Then why are you on here on an atheist forum ready to defend your views along with many others when someone questions them?

"A common misunderstanding.  Not all "opinions" are, in fact, equal."

Absolutely, and I thoroughly agree. In this case, I am trying to say that those who say "There is a god, I know it" and "There isn't a god, I know it" have equal amounts of proof for their statements. Each take a leap of faith, atheists just fill in the gaps that we don't understand with certainty that these gaps will never be filled with anything supernatural. Is that assumption not a little closed-minded given how little we have yet to learn about the universe around us? Keeping an open mind about what me may not know and hoping for the best seems more reasoned to me but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

You were a shitty atheist.

Ha, so there are levels of goodness and properness for an atheist and how they conduct themselves? Sounds suspiciously like other world views that you seem to disagree with.

As for the good and bad concept existing: Because we still live in a society which has religious concepts entrenched in our culture, we don't see that good and bad are concepts which at a fundamental level were heavily influenced by religion. Things like helping those who are needy and putting others before ourselves. And even though religion is starting to die, these parts of it have still survived even though we now often mistakenly think they are nothing do with religion. Imagine no religion at all and just a cold Darwinian style society which never had religion - how do you define good and bad?

- Z

Hypothetically, if all the shortcomings of atheism were conceded.  It's just, in reality, a lawless world devoid of any purpose.  What makes that untrue?  It's not great.  A nice God and meaning and eternal life seems better.  But do you really believe in God, or do you feel you have to believe in God because the alternative is really bad.   

In that way, religion reminds me a bit of cancer patients.  The Doc says "You've got a 25% chance of survival."  And the patient and their family always says "We're going to beat this thing!"  Because the alternative is dying.  And even though they know that's more likely, they prefer to believe the positive result is going to happen.  But with God, it's more of a 0% chance of survival, and religious folks still say "We're going to beat this thing!" anyways.

For some people, atheism is a bit like seeing how hotdogs are made.  And after they see it, they say "Gross, I'm going back to not knowing how hotdogs are made."   That's sort of the vibe your OP gives off.

I don't get the sense that he sees it as 0% chance. From what i can see, it seems he feels there's a pretty equal 50/50 chance of God existing and so he'd rather take the optimistic approach.

Personally for myself, I'm not an optimistic person. Or a pessimistic one for that matter. I feel I'm pretty realistic. I won't hope for something to be true unless I feel there is very good chance that it is.

As I said in another thread, I do find atheism the least likely scenario. If I wasn't Christian I would be a deist because to me, it seems logical that there would be more out there besides the physical. Though that's a conversation for another thread.