Verse 42:23 and how to interpret it, disciplines of interpreting Quran.

[pocaracas]

Clearly, you have nothing to show me beyond "believe and you'll see"... just like all other religions.
Which places your particular belief at exactly the same level as all of those.

If you want to really believe that, but I won't confirm it. Rather I testify God proved himself through his proofs and rehearsed his signs unto humans through an instance of his proof.

From my point of view, you are testifying the things that were passed on to you by other people... people you know, people you trust, people... and they got it from other people, who got it from yet other people... and, ultimately, from the people who wrote the book you follow.
People, not any god, are at the heart of this whole ordeal.
Granted, Islam directly states that it was a person that got the revelation and whatnot.... but still.... it was a person!
I cannot trust that person.
I seriously doubt that any god worthy of the name (I know you like god's names) would entrust such an important thing as it's real existence in the hands of one person.
I seriously doubt it would be down to a matter of believing (mimicking all the other preexisting religions)...
I seriously doubt that, if god wanted me to acknowledge its existence, I (and many others) would be left in the dark.
I seriously doubt that, if god wanted me to acknowledge its existence, it would come on a vessel of human origin - book or person.

If god wanted everyone on Earth to acknowledge its existence, god would have made it plain, as plain as gravity. Instead, we have this hodgepodge of competing religions, all based on the exact same premise - belief.

I've been following some of your threads and your proofs have been always lacking. I've told you this on a few of those threads, but it seems you're on a track of your own, like if you have a script, or at least some guidelines and you can't deviate.
Why? Why do you do this?

[WinterHold]

Seems you aren't interested in a discussion but just rehearsing the same points.

You really have no shame from coming back preaching "the same message you yourself admitted to have "no mention in the Islamic main source book" !

-The post between me and you:

Me asking the OP about his religion:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-52455-p...pid1686286

AtlasS33 Said:

Bring them. I want names.

Jesus is mentioned by name:
Moses is mentioned by name:

Sura 2, The Quran:
( 87 )   And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed.

Mohammed is mentioned by name:

Sura 3, The Quran:
( 144 )   Muhammad is not but a messenger. [Other] messengers have passed on before him. So if he was to die or be killed, would you turn back on your heels [to unbelief]? And he who turns back on his heels will never harm Allah at all; but Allah will reward the grateful.

Noah, Lot, Abraham...etc, all are mentioned by name.
Where are your 12 imams?  where are their names?

And here is -early on the discussion- the OP, lying directly about it:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-52455-p...pid1686280

MysticKnight said:
There is many direct verses, but you will dispute my translation. And so I would have to show the context (with the Surah) or with respect to the theme in Quran.

If you are not interested in the themes in Quran, you aren't interested in understanding a verse by Quran, but rather by your desires.

To end the discussion with this:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-52455-p...pid1686290

MysticKnight said:
Their (Abraham, Moses) truth however is not proven by mentioning their names, but the reasoning of Quran. And if you believe in Mohammad because Quran mentions by name, that is a pathetic reason to believe in Mohammad, it's circular and has no meaning.

As for the names of Imams in Quran, it's the sweetest themes.

No shame; OP ? At least have the honesty to admit?

[Minimalist]

Whatever helps you sleep at night Minimalist.

Trust me.  Nothing about you or your primitive bullshit interrupts my sleep!

[Abaddon_ire]

Whatever helps you sleep at night Minimalist.

Trust me.  Nothing about you or your primitive bullshit interrupts my sleep!

Bleievers seem to harbour a fantasy about that. Apparently, all atheists  spend all of their time fretting. From a certain point of view.

[Mystic]

If you want to really believe that, but I won't confirm it. Rather I testify God proved himself through his proofs and rehearsed his signs unto humans through an instance of his proof.

From my point of view, you are testifying the things that were passed on to you by other people... people you know, people you trust, people... and they got it from other people, who got it from yet other people... and, ultimately, from the people who wrote the book you follow.
People, not any god, are at the heart of this whole ordeal.
Granted, Islam directly states that it was a person that got the revelation and whatnot.... but still.... it was a person!
I cannot trust that person.
I seriously doubt that any god worthy of the name (I know you like god's names) would entrust such an important thing as it's real existence in the hands of one person.
I seriously doubt it would be down to a matter of believing (mimicking all the other preexisting religions)...
I seriously doubt that, if god wanted me to acknowledge its existence, I (and many others) would be left in the dark.
I seriously doubt that, if god wanted me to acknowledge its existence, it would come on a vessel of human origin - book or person.

If god wanted everyone on Earth to acknowledge its existence, god would have made it plain, as plain as gravity. Instead, we have this hodgepodge of competing religions, all based on the exact same premise - belief.

I've been following some of your threads and your proofs have been always lacking. I've told you this on a few of those threads, but it seems you're on a track of your own, like if you have a script, or at least some guidelines and you can't deviate.
Why? Why do you do this?

Insight gives insight no matter who passes it on.  But will you seek insight from everyone on earth or will you look for a chosen path from God and doors to God that are appointed by him.

No one is saying to accept something because a people say it is from God or a people attributed to a person they believe an appointed person is from God.

And those who believe on those grounds are condemned.

Now you may say well if it's about insight and learning, why can't we just learn from one another and reflect ourselves?

We are suppose to learn from another but what if some guy just makes us crap like you all believe I do?

This is where a scripture from God and explanation by a Messenger is key.  And to understand both the explanation and scripture, you need an explanation of the explanation.

But how do we know some idiot didn't make up a lie and attribute it to a Messenger or an appointed guide, we don't know unless we have vision that it is truth. And the latter we don't even know if the idiot didn't make it up but it's true and gives insight, that it something Messenger and Guide did teach even if they paraphrased it a different way.

But we aren't go to go far if we settle for every person for enlightenment. Nor are we going to agree if everyone can provide an interpretation without reference to the explanation of the Messenger or his appointed Successors.

And we can't just accept any saying from Messenger or appointed successors if we don't see the insight of it, and to prove the insight of it, we have to refer to a scripture from God.

This is the way forward for humanity to unite and is the best in ending and result. We await these days like drought stricken await rain.

[Brian37]

Trust me.  Nothing about you or your primitive bullshit interrupts my sleep!

Bleievers seem to harbour a fantasy about that. Apparently, all atheists  spend all of their time fretting. From a certain point of view.

"Fret" makes religiously justified violence and pulpit politics, sound like nobody should worry about the affects of religion or the divisions they cause. I certainly DO spend time trying to promote the idea of keeping religion on a leash. Now, what would be so horrible about living on a planet where humans did not murder each other over religion?

[pocaracas]

This is where a scripture from God and explanation by a Messenger is key.

Sadly, for you, you present me with a scripture from man and an explanation by the same man.

This is the way forward for humanity to unite and is the best in ending and result. We await these days like drought stricken await rain.

Agreed.
Mankind should stop quarreling over who has the right god, or the particular land, or whatever.... just live and let live!

[Mystic]

The concept of "family" and it's relationship with "guidance" and so "family of guidance" which consists of chosen ones who inherit the leadership in their community from one another, is a major theme in Quran.

Keeping in mind this theme, it's impossible to see "the near kin" in 42:23 as other then the family of Mohammad and to see them as to see them as chosen pure souls on par with Mohammad.

Part of the discipline of properly interpreting Quran is to see what Surahs go on and on about, and how they hold on to one another, and how verses hold on to one another through that.

We will see that Quran went on and on about this concept of chosen family and it's the heart of it's thesis.

[Deesse23]

The concept of "family" and it's relationship with "guidance" and so "family of guidance" which consists of chosen ones who inherit the leadership in their community from one another, is a major theme in Quran.

Keeping in mind this theme, it's impossible to see "the near kin" in 42:23 as other then the family of Mohammad and to see them as to see them as chosen pure souls on par with Mohammad.

Part of the discipline of properly interpreting Quran is to see what Surahs go on and on about, and how they hold on to one another, and how verses hold on to one another through that.

We will see that Quran went on and on about this concept of chosen family and it's the heart of it's thesis.

Welcome to my ignore list. Your senseless blather is just unbearable.

[Mystic]

The concept of "family" and it's relationship with "guidance" and so "family of guidance" which consists of chosen ones who inherit the leadership in their community from one another, is a major theme in Quran.

Keeping in mind this theme, it's impossible to see "the near kin" in 42:23 as other then the family of Mohammad and to see them as to see them as chosen pure souls on par with Mohammad.

Part of the discipline of properly interpreting Quran is to see what Surahs go on and on about, and how they hold on to one another, and how verses hold on to one another through that.

We will see that Quran went on and on about this concept of chosen family and it's the heart of it's thesis.

Welcome to my ignore list. Your senseless blather is just unbearable.

Peace be upon you.