Definition of "delusion" in DSM-5

[brewer]

OP: And the theists could very well say atheists suffer from self deception delusions. 

Why are you so butt hurt about this? 

DSM5 delusions are not accepted by society. Theists express a society accepted delusion, end of story.

[Alexmahone]

The definition is the premise. I thought we are debating what part of the definition means religious beliefs aren't considered a psychiatric delusion. We are already accepting the definition as it is the premise.

Are you questioning what part of the definition means religious beliefs aren't considered a psychiatric definition or are you questioning whether you agree with the definition or think certain parts of it are unnecessary? You have to be clear with your question otherwise your definition will be so flexible and equivocal that you will flip back and forth too much to be addressing anything coherent.

No, I was saying that the DSM-5 should redefine delusion to just "Any belief held despite incontrovertible evidence or proof against it". That is the dictionary definition of "delusion". Then it would include religious beliefs. It would also include mathematical delusions: Believing that the square of a real number can be negative ought to be considered a delusion.

[Shell B]

It has to do with the crippling effect of the delusion. If you believe Elvis is alive and you pay your bills go to work, school,etc. then you are just irrational and misguided. If you will not leave the house because you think Elvis is showing up to marry you (true story with a family member of mine) then your thoughts are delusional. When I worked as a psych nurse we tried to teach patients how to distinguish between their "normal" religious thoughts and those that are signalling another psychotic break. Religion was never discouraged and I know why. My entire family is religious, I have cared for those in a a psychotic delusional state, and these states are different.

Surely you're changing the definition here. The DSM-5 doesn't say anything about the crippling effect of the delusion.

It is assumed by its presence in the book. A mental disorder, disordered thinking, whatever you want to call it all boils down to coping. A person may be chronically nervous about school, but unless they start having panic attacks and avoiding school, they don't have a disorder. A mental disorder must cause disruption of a person's life to be considered such. Therefore, if the delusion is not causing disruption, it's not a disorder. I think we can agree that there's a big difference between a person who believes god answers her prayers and a person who believes god is speaking through her literally.

[FatAndFaithless]

Surely you're changing the definition here. The DSM-5 doesn't say anything about the crippling effect of the delusion.

It is assumed by its presence in the book. A mental disorder, disordered thinking, whatever you want to call it all boils down to coping. A person may be chronically nervous about school, but unless they start having panic attacks and avoiding school, they don't have a disorder. A mental disorder must cause disruption of a person's life to be considered such. Therefore, if the delusion is not causing disruption, it's not a disorder. I think we can agree that there's a big difference between a person who believes god answers her prayers and a person who believes god is speaking through her literally.

Right.  Another example is someone believing a god exists versus believing that they are immune to snake venom because the bible says so.  One is obviously more impactful and disruptive than the other, even if I personally think that neither is factually true.

[RoadRunner79]

I borrowed a copy of the DSM-5 from my university library today. In the glossary of technical terms, "delusion" is defined as

A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly held despite what almost everyone else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary.

So far, so good. It then adds:

The belief is not ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture (i.e., it is not an article of religious faith).

Why do religious beliefs get a free pass? So if you're convinced Elvis Presley is still alive, you're delusional but if you think Jesus of Nazareth is still alive and can hear/answer your prayers, you're just a Christian. Why the double standard?

I don't see anything in conflict with the first definition and the addition.  The addition becomes more specific and gives example.

And similarities between your two examples, don't necessarily mean that the same conclusion follows (because of other circumstances and how the beliefs where reached).  Would you agree, that not all false beliefs fall under the classification of delusional?

[Alexmahone]

And similarities between your two examples, don't necessarily mean that the same conclusion follows (because of other circumstances and how the beliefs where reached).  Would you agree, that not all false beliefs fall under the classification of delusional?

There are 195 countries in the world. If a person believes there are 183 countries in the world, that's just a false belief. But if he still believes that after doing a day of library research, then that's a delusion.

[SteveII]

The definition is the premise. I thought we are debating what part of the definition means religious beliefs aren't considered a psychiatric delusion. We are already accepting the definition as it is the premise.

Are you questioning what part of the definition means religious beliefs aren't considered a psychiatric definition or are you questioning whether you agree with the definition or think certain parts of it are unnecessary? You have to be clear with your question otherwise your definition will be so flexible and equivocal that you will flip back and forth too much to be addressing anything coherent.

No, I was saying that the DSM-5 should redefine delusion to just "Any belief held despite incontrovertible evidence or proof against it". That is the dictionary definition of "delusion". Then it would include religious beliefs. It would also include mathematical delusions: Believing that the square of a real number can be negative ought to be considered a delusion.

There is no "incontrovertible evidence or proof against" religion. There is only subjectively-measured claims by a minority of the population of a lack of proof. These are not the same things.

[Edwardo Piet]

The definition is the premise. I thought we are debating what part of the definition means religious beliefs aren't considered a psychiatric delusion. We are already accepting the definition as it is the premise.

Are you questioning what part of the definition means religious beliefs aren't considered a psychiatric definition or are you questioning whether you agree with the definition or think certain parts of it are unnecessary? You have to be clear with your question otherwise your definition will be so flexible and equivocal that you will flip back and forth too much to be addressing anything coherent.

No, I was saying that the DSM-5 should redefine delusion to just "Any belief held despite incontrovertible evidence or proof against it". That is the dictionary definition of "delusion". Then it would include religious beliefs. It would also include mathematical delusions: Believing that the square of a real number can be negative ought to be considered a delusion.

Well it shouldn't redefine it to the dictionary definition because there are multitude of delusions that aren't relevant to psychiatry...

Maybe we should let psychiatry deal with psychiatric definitions? Just a thought.

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And similarities between your two examples, don't necessarily mean that the same conclusion follows (because of other circumstances and how the beliefs where reached).  Would you agree, that not all false beliefs fall under the classification of delusional?

There are 195 countries in the world. If a person believes there are 183 countries in the world, that's just a false belief. But if he still believes that after doing a day of library research, then that's a delusion.

No, all false beliefs are delusions. But not all delusions are false beliefs. Because some delusions refer to a completely different kind of delusion. Which is more about mental health than truth and falsehood.

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It is assumed by its presence in the book. A mental disorder, disordered thinking, whatever you want to call it all boils down to coping. A person may be chronically nervous about school, but unless they start having panic attacks and avoiding school, they don't have a disorder. A mental disorder must cause disruption of a person's life to be considered such. Therefore, if the delusion is not causing disruption, it's not a disorder. I think we can agree that there's a big difference between a person who believes god answers her prayers and a person who believes god is speaking through her literally.

Right.  Another example is someone believing a god exists versus believing that they are immune to snake venom because the bible says so.  One is obviously more impactful and disruptive than the other, even if I personally think that neither is factually true.

And here's the classic one, for me:

[Shell B]

And similarities between your two examples, don't necessarily mean that the same conclusion follows (because of other circumstances and how the beliefs where reached).  Would you agree, that not all false beliefs fall under the classification of delusional?

There are 195 countries in the world. If a person believes there are 183 countries in the world, that's just a false belief. But if he still believes that after doing a day of library research, then that's a delusion.

Or he's just stupid.

[brewer]

No, I was saying that the DSM-5 should redefine delusion to just "Any belief held despite incontrovertible evidence or proof against it". That is the dictionary definition of "delusion". Then it would include religious beliefs. It would also include mathematical delusions: Believing that the square of a real number can be negative ought to be considered a delusion.

Great, we're going to give a medical diagnosis to all kids that believe in santa, easter bunny and tooth fairy.