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To All Those Theists Who Aren't In It For The Swag
#1
To All Those Theists Who Aren't In It For The Swag
To all you theists who aren't in it for the swag . . .

I have two possible scenarios.

Scenario 1: Suppose God contacted earth and made the following announcement "I know the future and I have decided it is time to inform you all that absolutely no one will get to Heaven because absolutely no one will meet the high standards that I set. You are all going to go to Hell after you die on this earth and you will all be tortured for all eternity. There is no way you can possibly redeem yourself because I've already seen the future and I already know you will all fail. It's eternal hellfire for everyone. You may as well all give up trying."

Scenario 2: Suppose God contacted earth and made the following announcement instead: "I have decided to let you all know that I wrote both the Bible and the Koran. I am indeed the God that created this world but those books were trickery and I'm actually evil. And there's no use thinking I'm Satan because there is no Satan. It was all a ruse. I don't care about petty humans, you are all my playthings. I'm going to torture you all for fun in hell for all eternity after you die and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. Until then I'll enjoy watching you all waste your lives while prolonging your life as much as possible out of fear of how I very much will enjoy torturing you forever after you finally kick the bucket."

How would you react to the two scenarios if the truth is all that matters and not the swag? Would you still believe in both those scenarios after finding the truth about God? Would you still believe in one scenario but not the other? Would you stop believing in both cases?
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#2
RE: To All Those Theists Who Aren't In It For The Swag
What do you mean by "would I believe in those scenarios?" I mean, if God said those things and I was there to see Him say them, what is there to not believe?
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
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#3
RE: To All Those Theists Who Aren't In It For The Swag
(May 31, 2018 at 7:35 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: What do you mean by "would I believe in those scenarios?" I mean, if God said those things and I was there to see Him say them, what is there to not believe?

Correct answer!
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#4
RE: To All Those Theists Who Aren't In It For The Swag
How would you know he was "god?"  It's easy to say but harder to prove.
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#5
RE: To All Those Theists Who Aren't In It For The Swag
(May 31, 2018 at 7:37 pm)Minimalist Wrote: How would you know he was "god?"  It's easy to say but harder to prove.

For the purpose of this thought experiment it's already assumed he's proved it somehow.

I personally believe it's impossible for such a thing to be proven even by God himself. But the point of this thought experiment is to address the theists who believed God was really there telling them these things... and if that would make them lose their faith in him or not.
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#6
RE: To All Those Theists Who Aren't In It For The Swag
[Image: 824bc3040460c61d340890e74ce72587.jpg]
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#7
RE: To All Those Theists Who Aren't In It For The Swag
God only communicates behind a veil or sends a Messenger be it an Angel (chosen hidden being) or Human.

I would neither trust the veil nor the Angel and it is impossible in this scenario to know it's from God per the paradigm of my understanding of Quran.

Read the 15th Chapter of Quran.

Look at the question of "Why not an Angel" and look Abraham being "terrified" of the "guests" who he knew were Messengers and Angels, yet was terrified and had to assure himself they were trustworthy hidden beings who came in the form of mortals (outward temporal form for a short time).

Look at how Lot says "You are an unknown people".

Even Prophets don't trust Angels blindly. They test them and make sure and only once they are assured and at peace with the vision they have of them and know they are trust worthy spirits from God, do they believe in their messages.

Gabriel like Jesus is a instance of the holy spirit. 

You can test such beings both outwardly and inwardly at that time, but in our time, we are left with legacy of knowledge.

If Quran says crap, I won't testify to it.
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#8
RE: To All Those Theists Who Aren't In It For The Swag
I still don't understand the thought experiment lol...
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
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#9
RE: To All Those Theists Who Aren't In It For The Swag
(May 31, 2018 at 7:37 pm)Minimalist Wrote: How would you know he was "god?"  It's easy to say but harder to prove.

You and I agree on this, it would be impossible in this scenario.

It would be like saying what if Israel (Jacob) was evil.

If he was, all of the miracles of Moses would be proof of nothing to Pharaoh.

(May 31, 2018 at 7:47 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I still don't understand the thought experiment lol...

Iblis' forces, all except him probably feel they are the right guides and the true Angels.  He is probably the only one who fell who knows he is evil and wrong. That is why all misguidance is then single to him, because all the demons under him probably don't much know better like the humans they "enlighten".

They might argue, just because Gabriel and Michael and the Angels with these two, Michael being the head while Gabriel being the highest veil among them, "these are stronger but might doesn't make right."


Intuitively that seems true. Up until you realize the oneness of God and God is strong and powerful, and responsible guardian over this world.

Hearing something from an Angel or having telepathic vision from the dark forces, is different the ascending through the door of guidance and God has adorned the sky of this world with lanterns for those who look.

The lanterns are guides, lights that guide. But how to know the true guides from deceivers.

This is all important, and I think the heart of the Torah and Gospels, and Quran is about this.

Jacob can defeat even Angels in fighting, he has to, or would not be God's guardian king from Abraham's offspring.

Much more is to be said, but, this is a key topic.
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#10
RE: To All Those Theists Who Aren't In It For The Swag
(May 31, 2018 at 6:47 pm)Edwardo Piet Wrote: To all you theists who aren't in it for the swag . . .

I have two possible scenarios.

Scenario 1: Suppose God contacted earth and made the following announcement "I know the future and I have decided it is time to inform you all that absolutely no one will get to Heaven because absolutely no one will meet the high standards that I set. You are all going to go to Hell after you die on this earth and you will all be tortured for all eternity. There is no way you can possibly redeem yourself because I've already seen the future and I already know you will all fail. It's eternal hellfire for everyone. You may as well all give up trying."

He has done exactly that, and all who reject the atonement will go to an eternal hell of your making.

EP Wrote:Scenario 2: Suppose God contacted earth and made the following announcement instead: "I have decided to let you all know that I wrote both the Bible and the Koran. I am indeed the God that created this world but those books were trickery and I'm actually evil. And there's no use thinking I'm Satan because there is no Satan. It was all a ruse. I don't care about petty humans, you are all my playthings. I'm going to torture you all for fun in hell for all eternity after you die and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. Until then I'll enjoy watching you all waste your lives while prolonging your life as much as possible out of fear of how I very much will enjoy torturing you forever after you finally kick the bucket."

That is the ruse Satan has used with you and all other nonbelievers, you've taken it hook line and sinker, you swallowed the bait, so now what will you do that you have been told the truth.

EP Wrote:How would you react to the two scenarios if the truth is all that matters and not the swag? Would you still believe in both those scenarios after finding the truth about God? Would you still believe in one scenario but not the other? Would you stop believing in both cases?

 For me they are both nonsense and show your fear of not being able to control what happens to you after death, hell is a frightful place and if you do not change the one that awaits you is of your own making, just imagine you are now determining your own punishment.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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