Banning face coverings

[chimp3]

So, are we going to ban dressing up in Halloween costumes next? Fucking fashion fascists!

[vorlon13]

I might have to wear a moonsuit this winter with my current health issues . . . .

[ignoramus]

May as well ban men with beards then if we're going to be equal

Rob, is your point one of security, fashion or as a religious expression?

I would ban it here simply from a practical security aspect. Same reason you can't walk into a bank with a bike helmet on ...

[paulpablo]

Using the practical definition of what a choice is, not getting into a debate about free will, I think some women do choose to hide their face because of religious indoctrination.  Their beliefs influence their choice.  

I think it would be better to ban it in certain places and situations.  There's going to be an element of fear in upholding the ban in any situation in England.  It's in a place with some violent Muslim gangs, the ban is going to involve them, they'll basically need an army to enforce individual situations of a woman wearing a face veil from time to time.  So the situation they're going to enforce it in should be worth it because it'll cost a lot of police time.

[robvalue]

May as well ban men with beards then if we're going to be equal

Rob, is your point one of security, fashion or as a religious expression?

I would ban it here simply from a practical security aspect. Same reason you can't walk into a bank with a bike helmet on ...

I'm finding the whole thing confusing really. I'm thinking it all through. Right now it seems to me like a general ban is a bad idea, as the arguments supporting it are rather weak. The question is whether a ban would be a benefit to society overall. That's always an extremely difficult issue. I'm feeling that the restriction on personal liberty is not justified by potential benefits, and going after religious indoctrination in this manner is a dubious practice. Perhaps the countries that made the ban hoped that this would aid integration, but I wonder if this just makes things worse.

I agree that people should have to remove it when security demands it, like you say. If you need to be identifiable, then religious exemption is not acceptable.

[vulcanlogician]

A ban would make including this in indoctrination harder. This would, I hope, be a benefit to all women yet to be born into Islam. But the price would probably be heavy for all the women currently wearing them. My wife pointed out to me that even in England, there are some extreme Muslim subcommunities that the police are frightened to enter. Enforcing such a ban here would be very hard, and if it was done, it could result in women becoming prisoners in their home. They might not be let out in public at all.

These downsides really hit home with me. You can ban all the headwear you'd like, but (unfortunately) it is nigh impossible to ban the subjugation of women. And, in truth, that's what we'd like to ban.

I imagine most Americans would oppose such a measure (myself included), because the freedom to dress however we please is sacred to us.

So with those two things in mind, I would personally oppose such a ban.

[Cyberman]

Banning religiously-motivated face coverings accomplishes nothing, aside from feeding kneejerk religious persecution reactions and already overstrained racial tensions. More profitable would be to work on the root causes and make it so that women, in this case, don't feel forced to wear such things.

[Amarok]

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[pgrimes15]

My wife pointed out to me that even in England, there are some extreme Muslim subcommunities that the police are frightened to enter.

Where ?

[paulpablo]

My wife pointed out to me that even in England, there are some extreme Muslim subcommunities that the police are frightened to enter.

Where ?

If it's anywhere it'll be somewhere around London or Birmingham.

I live around one of the rougher Muslim areas outside of a big city.  The police aren't afraid to enter but if two Pakistani families are fighting it takes a few vans of police to split them up sometimes.

Even during the riots in the 90s the police weren't afraid to enter but they just came in vans with guns. Which is a pretty rare sight in England outside of a big city.