The fallacy of politicizing draft dodging. OP/ED

[Gawdzilla Sama]

[Brian37]

Brian, you started off with a false equivalence there.

Where?

1. There is no military requirement mandated in the oath of office to hold public office.

2. Putting someone in a job the cannot handle is stupid, combat or not.

3. Not being able to do that job, does not mean you cannot appreciate those who can do the job. Just like you can appreciate the designers of  the car you drive but cannot build the car from scratch yourself.

Good leadership isn't about being able to do everything like a man with a cape. Good leadership is the ability to delegate and listen. Service is one way, sure, but not the only way. If military service was the only determining factor of being a good leader, then Hitler and Stalin, who both fought in combat, were great leaders too.

I would rather have a civilian who hasn't served in the White House who values the weight of war, whom understands that war is hell, than have someone who has served whom thinks it is a Rambo movie.

Again, it isn't an either or thing for me knowing Tammy Duckworth and McCain did serve. Yet Obama did not. It depends on the individual.

[Anomalocaris]

There is something to be said for having a commander in Chief who may send men to die who has had the experience of being sent to die.

The problem there is that you then require a limitless string of wars to keep your C-in-C with  battlefield experience.

Besides, how do you account for someone like Lindsey Graham?  Sure, he was an "officer" in the Judge Advocate's office and he spent his active duty career in Germany defending, most notably, pilots accused of using marijuana.  There is no bigger warmonger in the Senate than Graham but exactly where is his experience of being sent to die?

A limitless string of wars is something the peace loving US of A, almost uniquely in the world, has never been in want of.

I didn’t say any wearing of uniform will do. I said know what it is to be sent to die.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with 'politicizing draft dodging'.

Boru

[Brian37]

The problem there is that you then require a limitless string of wars to keep your C-in-C with  battlefield experience.

Besides, how do you account for someone like Lindsey Graham?  Sure, he was an "officer" in the Judge Advocate's office and he spent his active duty career in Germany defending, most notably, pilots accused of using marijuana.  There is no bigger warmonger in the Senate than Graham but exactly where is his experience of being sent to die?

A limitless string of wars is something the peace loving US of A, almost uniquely in the world, has never been in want of.

I didn’t say any wearing of uniform will do.  I said know what it is to be sent to die.

I value service even though I did not serve. But, I think the logic does not follow that someone who did not serve can't value it because they were not in the moment. Family members of WW2 soldiers were at home, they were not in combat, but they constantly lived in fear waiting for a letter or dog tags or a knock on the door.

It can be trauma in and of itself, even in something as mundane as having police knock on your door to tell you your loved one died in a car accident. You don't have to be a survivor in that same car, to know those at home who got the knock on the door by the police are going to be in pain over that loss.

I still value the service of BOTH McCain and Duckworth. But I do not value the idea that political office should require military service to hold office.

Even in a voluntary military today, while nobody is forcing you to sign up, you still sign, and once you sign, it is a contract. In that context I cannot blame either a Republican or Democrat who serves, enlisted or officer, whom follow the orders of congress and or the President. But policy is a different issue, and that should be questioned, congress and the president, regardless of party, should be questioned as a matter of oversight as to how we use our military.

We do not live in a perfect system, and we have not always done the right thing policy wise. But that is not a slight on service, but policy making.

I would prefer a mix of leadership, both those whom have served and civilians. Not either or.

[Chad32]

Yeah, I'd almost want anyone who says we should go to war to spend a few years on the front lines first. How many of these guys pushing for war in Iraq or North Korea were on the front in Iran?

You know who else forces service on it's population? China and North Korea. 

There is no service requirement to hold public office. If you can find that oath in the oath of office of the Constitution, I will concede. But you will not find it.

Now again, forcing someone into combat who is not mentally fit is fucking stupid. If I ran a platoon I would want to make sure that every person in it could handle it. Putting someone on the battlefield who is not fit, gets people killed.

Did you also know that Hitler ate sugar?

Yeah, I know the answer isn't perfect, and I don't know what that perfect answer would be. I don't want there to be a draft, but I also don't want people making money off war either.

[Brian37]

You know who else forces service on it's population? China and North Korea. 

There is no service requirement to hold public office. If you can find that oath in the oath of office of the Constitution, I will concede. But you will not find it.

Now again, forcing someone into combat who is not mentally fit is fucking stupid. If I ran a platoon I would want to make sure that every person in it could handle it. Putting someone on the battlefield who is not fit, gets people killed.

Did you also know that Hitler ate sugar?

Yeah, I know the answer isn't perfect, and I don't know what that perfect answer would be. I don't want there to be a draft, but I also don't want people making money off war either.

That is the key globally. War is unfortunately a global industry, and friend and foe alike invest in the global weapons industry. Ike warned of what allowing that to get out of control could do.

But unfortunately we are still a tribal species, so I don't see how you can get rid of the need for a military.

I am all ears.

---

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with 'politicizing draft dodging'.

Boru

Everyone is calling Trump a draft dodger, while true so was Bill Clinton and Mitt Romney. Kerry a Democrat did serve, McCain a Republican did serve. Obama did not serve. 

I wish everyone would go and read my OP. It makes no sense to me, if you want those on the battlefield to make it home alive, to put others on the battlefield with them, who cannot handle the job. It makes more sense to me to insure anyone you put out there is vetted before they get out there.

Just like you would not want a fireman or policeman on the job who would freeze at the moment they need to take a risk.

And again, just because one cannot do something, does not mean that same person has no capability of appreciating those who can do it.

There are lots of reasons to hate Trump, his lack of service is not one of them. That is not what makes him a coward.

Inside and outside service, on any issue. I have long since hated the claim "You can do it if you try". It is true you can try, but not everyone is good at everything all the time. And especially with jobs that require focus and calm under extreme stress, not everyone is cut out for that.

I simply think it is better, just like any job, you vet the people you hire to insure you have those in that position that can do the job.

[Chad32]

We all need a military. We just don't need to spend over half our budget on it, while having hundreds of bases around the world, and use it for "regime change". We just need one to defend us from countries that are actually a threat, and not places like Iraq or North Korea, or Venezuela.

[Minimalist]

The problem there is that you then require a limitless string of wars to keep your C-in-C with  battlefield experience.

Besides, how do you account for someone like Lindsey Graham?  Sure, he was an "officer" in the Judge Advocate's office and he spent his active duty career in Germany defending, most notably, pilots accused of using marijuana.  There is no bigger warmonger in the Senate than Graham but exactly where is his experience of being sent to die?

A limitless string of wars is something the peace loving US of A, almost uniquely in the world, has never been in want of.

I didn’t say any wearing of uniform will do.  I said know what it is to be sent to die.

While the first sentence is, ironically, quite true, it does not solve the problem of the second sentence.

Even in WW2 lots of men served without ever leaving the states.  As some wag once noted, for every man firing a rifle there are ten men driving a truck.  Do we have to investigate the qualifications of truck drivers?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Did you also know that Hitler ate sugar?

Yeah, I know the answer isn't perfect, and I don't know what that perfect answer would be. I don't want there to be a draft, but I also don't want people making money off war either.

That is the key globally. War is unfortunately a global industry, and friend and foe alike invest in the global weapons industry. Ike warned of what allowing that to get out of control could do.

But unfortunately we are still a tribal species, so I don't see how you can get rid of the need for a military.

I am all ears.

---

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with 'politicizing draft dodging'.

Boru

Everyone is calling Trump a draft dodger, while true so was Bill Clinton and Mitt Romney. Kerry a Democrat did serve, McCain a Republican did serve. Obama did not serve. 

I wish everyone would go and read my OP. It makes no sense to me, if you want those on the battlefield to make it home alive, to put others on the battlefield with them, who cannot handle the job. It makes more sense to me to insure anyone you put out there is vetted before they get out there.

Just like you would not want a fireman or policeman on the job who would freeze at the moment they need to take a risk.

And again, just because one cannot do something, does not mean that same person has no capability of appreciating those who can do it.

There are lots of reasons to hate Trump, his lack of service is not one of them. That is not what makes him a coward.

Inside and outside service, on any issue. I have long since hated the claim "You can do it if you try". It is true you can try, but not everyone is good at everything all the time. And especially with jobs that require focus and calm under extreme stress, not everyone is cut out for that.

I simply think it is better, just like any job, you vet the people you hire to insure you have those in that position that can do the job.

You seem to be talking more against compulsory military service than about the politicization of avoiding it, though.  I don't disagree with you there - conscription is a bad thing. 

But I'm not sure the pejorative 'draft dodger' applies to Trump, Romney, or Clinton.  If the law makes exceptions for you to avoid military service on medical, religious or educational grounds and you take advantage of it, so what?

And I don't think 'everyone' is calling Trump a draft dodger.

Boru