My Escatological Vision

[dqualk]

Non-belief doesn’t involve hatred for God; you can’t hate something that doesn’t exist.

But let us pretend that at some point in the future the Lord Jesus revealed himself to you in such a way that you could not deny His existance without knowingly lying to yourself (for pretend) and you still chose to disbelieve and live in a lala land or something, that would be a form of hating God.

So even a nonbeliever seeking truth is going to end up finding Christ or God?

How does one ‘pretend’ to seek the truth, or seek it in a hateful way?

See, for me, truth is reality. I am seeking the best explanations for reality and real-life phenomena that are backed by the most comprehensive and non-contradictory evidence. And seeking truth in this way only moves me further away from the god hypothesis, not closer.

I believe that a nonbeliever seeking truth is going to end up finding Christ. And the Church at Vatican II and in the Catechism strongly suggest teh same thing.

Like say you are just claiming to seek the truth just to be cool or something, but your heart really is not in it. Like if all your friends really liked football so you just pretneded to like it to fit in.

Yeah I understand that you are seeking truth and that in your honest search for truth you have come to the conclusion that God does not exist. I think it is good to seek out the truth fearlessly and be honest with yourself. And I beleive God respects those who seek and our honest too. In Christianity faith is a gift from God, and I believe that God does not hold us accountable for what we cannot be held accountable. So you show your love for God in a more difficult way then me and Christians, from my view.

No, sorry, that doesn't make much sense. If God revealed his existence in some objectively verifiable way, then I would have no choice but to believe. The evidence would be there in front of me, and in front of others too, and I’d be a fool to ignore it. That's like saying 'I have evidence and knowledge that the chair I'm sitting in exists, but I choose not to believe it.' That would be self-delusion, and I'm not a big fan of that.

So unless God/Christ unambiguously reveals himself one day (which I think is highly unlikely), I cannot go through life just having blind faith in his existence.

And if what you say is true the I count you as a fellow Christian, from my view. In other words I beleive that you will go to heaven, if you contine to seek the Truth in charity. I would not call you a Christian because naturally you don't want to be called a Christian becuase you don't believe in Jesus lol. And I don't mean to be disrespcetful.

But one thing to realize about human existance is that because we are limited in our capacities we cannot know anything for sure, we can only know it to like a 99%. For example, just becuase you see a chair does not mean that you are not in a virtual reality program, and there is no chair. You accept on faith that your senses are not failing you under certain conditions, like when youre sober and the lighting is good and you are not under some other major stresser that may cause you to hallucinate.
But with saying that I know waht oyu mean, if Jesus was in front of you and asked you to put your fingers into the wounds in his hands and then he floated up to heaven you would believe. lol

I do find the origins of religion quite interesting. Some human ancestors had to have come up with the idea of a god at some point, most likely to explain natural phenomena that they didn’t understand. The concept of ‘god’ was then passed down through the generations, and entire mythologies evolved around it.

Yeah it is very interesting and that is probably the way things developed for the most part.

[Welsh cake]

Listen brosef, people use the word atheist to mean materialist atheist all the time. Words can have many meanings, they do not always mean one thing. One can say atheist in the broadest sense, or in a more particular sense when talking to a certain audience. But so I do not offend your sensibilities Ill say materialist athiest, even though its over stating the obvious as its clear by the context that when I say atheist I'm actually referring to atheistic materialism.

No they don't, not unless said people want to be caught out generalising, being ignorantly misinformed, and making inductive logical fallacies. Just because some atheists are materialist doesn't mean we are all materialists, that is fallacious, likewise Buddhists don't believe in your god or other gods, and are ferocious critics of materialism. Sorry, but you don't get to conflate the two together and conveniently lump us all together to make your argument sound more credible; now take a hint, you don't get to have your own definition of atheism and expect the rest of us in the public domain not to pick you up on that, no more than I can get away with having my own definition of theism. You'll keep banging your head on this particular brick wall because the words you seek to redefine and their meanings have already long been established.

Well a child likely doesnt believe in anything because he lacks the intellectual capacity. That is like saying a rock is an atheist.

Its one thing that you can't appreciate atheism is the default position and we all start off with non-belief or absence of belief in theistic deity concepts, I'd be happy to continue discussion, but I'm quite surprised you failed to spot the inherent silliness of the brain-fart statement you just made. Seriously you submitted inanimate rocks as an example with a straight face? Look, if we were both at a costume party dqualk and I asked you "Which ones do you think actually believe or don't believe in unicorns?" would you really need me to specify I'm talking about the partiers just to stop you listing the floorboards, carpets and tables? You can't be that dense... at least I hope for your sake you're not.

I'm afraid you are wrong.

A positive claim is any claim about the existence or properties of anything. Saying "There is no god" is a positive claim. Saying "there is a god" is also a positive claim.
Saying "I don't believe X" is a positive claim about your belief, but not about X. Lacking a belief in X because of the absence of evidence does not constitute a positive claim about X, it merely constitutes the null hypothesis. Any sane person should hold that position about everything for which they have no evidence.

I'm afraid you don't understand the philosophy of ontology.

Allow me to simplify it further, making the claim "There is no god", is arguing for something's non-existence which is ontologically negative, whereas conversely asserting "There is a god" and seeking to establish said being's existence epistemologically is a positive ontological claim.

With all due respect if you can't comprehend that then its no wonder you think your burden of proof is placed on your audience and not you.

[thesummerqueen]

Did he really use the word brosef?

[Welsh cake]

Apparently, and since we're not peers (for which I'm almost willing to thank God) I can only assume he meant it as an insult. ^^

[OnlyNatural]

I believe that a nonbeliever seeking truth is going to end up finding Christ. And the Church at Vatican II and in the Catechism strongly suggest teh same thing.

So all paths lead to your God. Too bad every other religion thinks the same thing about their god. They can't all be right. Most likely none of them are.

In Christianity faith is a gift from God, and I believe that God does not hold us accountable for what we cannot be held accountable. So you show your love for God in a more difficult way then me and Christians, from my view.

Faith seems like a pretty lousy gift. The ability to just blindly believe something, despite lack of evidence or even evidence to the contrary. I prefer to use evolution's gift of intelligence and rational thinking.

And if what you say is true the I count you as a fellow Christian, from my view. In other words I beleive that you will go to heaven, if you contine to seek the Truth in charity. I would not call you a Christian because naturally you don't want to be called a Christian becuase you don't believe in Jesus lol. And I don't mean to be disrespcetful.

I used to be a Christian, in that I swallowed the Bible's teachings whole, never questioned them, and went around feeling like God and Jesus were looking out for me. I was young and very impressionable. During my time as a Christian, I felt the wonderful warmth of a caring community, but I never experienced anything supernatural or divine, not even once. Anyway, I eventually grew up, went to university, and atheism naturally followed.

if Jesus was in front of you and asked you to put your fingers into the wounds in his hands and then he floated up to heaven you would believe. lol

If that happened, I'd grab the nearest person and ask if they saw Him too. If they didn't, I'd check into a psychiatric hospital.

But one thing to realize about human existance is that because we are limited in our capacities we cannot know anything for sure, we can only know it to like a 99%.

And you're hoping that God fits into that 1% that we don't yet understand, even though the 99% of the world we do understand lacks any evidence of his existence. That's just wishful thinking.

[Minimalist]

dqualk Wrote: if Jesus was in front of you and asked you to put your fingers into the wounds in his hands and then he floated up to heaven you would believe

But he didn't and it seems that the stories that claim he did are nothing but a pile of shit designed to con gullible fools.

[DeistPaladin]

dqualk Wrote: if Jesus was in front of you and asked you to put your fingers into the wounds in his hands and then he floated up to heaven you would believe

But he didn't and it seems that the stories that claim he did are nothing but a pile of shit designed to con gullible fools.

Actually, Min, I read one modern eye witness account that said Jesus came by his motel room. The two then did some rather kinky variations on that Johnnien Gospel passage on what body part to put in where on Jesus. Suffice to say, according to his account, he "accepted Jesus", so to speak, and now smiles each time he signs his letter to fellow Christians, "yours in Him".

[thesummerqueen]

I'm committing coffee abuse today, between you and Min making me spit it out in laughter.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

How long should one seek ?

I sought for about 24 years,from age 16, when I began seriously questioning Catholicism,to age 40,when I realised I was an atheist. Christianity went first.I found it to be the most fatuous of all the Abrahamic faiths.(it's a matter of degree)

Sincere,rational enquiry,looking for evidence,led me away from Christianity and all religions. I found no evidence ,and no belief.
I understand but do not agree with or respect beliefs based on faith.(ie unsupported by evidence) THAT is simple superstition.

The claim that sincere and rational enquiry will lead to Christianity is either a barefaced lie or pig ignorant stupidity. I can see no other alternatives.

[dqualk]

@OnlyNatural

So all paths lead to your God. Too bad every other religion thinks the same thing about their god. They can't all be right. Most likely none of them are

I never said all paths lead to God. If anything Jesus leads all men to Himself. However, along the way people can really reject God, and when they do this they forfiet their soul. And what good is it to gain the whole world and lose your soul? But if someone is sincerely seeking the Truth they will find it, God has promised. However, "sincerely" seeking is a matter of the heart and only God sees the heart. Even we have trouble discerning the things of our own heart. For this reason I try not to be arrogant, as I know that I am in the same boat as anyone else, and that apart from God's grace I can do nothing. I seek to give mercy and hope for all men of goodwill becuase I understand that I need mercy and if I cannot have real hope that others will go to heaven then how can I have hope for myself, when I know how messed up I am?

Faith seems like a pretty lousy gift. The ability to just blindly believe something, despite lack of evidence or even evidence to the contrary. I prefer to use evolution's gift of intelligence and rational thinking.

Faith can be abused no doubt, and that is a scandal. However, we all must have faith in something. Even if it is faith that there are true propositions, and that we can seek them out with our senses requires some faith, that is faith in the existance of truth, and faith in your own senses. The only difference is that I think my belief in intrinsic value is so properly basic that I would believe it before I would believe my senses. And intrinsic value does not make sense apart from God. Therefore I hold belief in God to be properly basic. And this is consistent with the idea that faith is a gift from God, as not all people hold belief in God to be properly basic. Further, I believe that God does not hold us accountable for that which He has not given us. So if one is not given the gift of faith, that will not be held against him, instead one should work with the grace they are given in charity.

I used to be a Christian, in that I swallowed the Bible's teachings whole, never questioned them, and went around feeling like God and Jesus were looking out for me. I was young and very impressionable. During my time as a Christian, I felt the wonderful warmth of a caring community, but I never experienced anything supernatural or divine, not even once. Anyway, I eventually grew up, went to university, and atheism naturally followed.

Interesting I have two friends that did the same thing.

I believe you when you say you never experienced anything overtly supernatural. If you read the journals of Mother Theresa she struggles with the same thing, and she has doubts about God too. Ultimately she never lost faith in God, but it was hard for her to hold on to her faith, and she was constantly faced with doubt. Especially because she expereinced so much evil first hand, with starvation, rape, and the immense suffering that happened in her community. I say this only to say that it is not necessary that one should expereince the supernatural first hand. Jesus said to Thomas blessed are those who believe and do not see. I'm not acting like this should just change your mind, I mean only to say that your experience is not unique within Christianity. There are many who do not experience the supernatural first hand and long for it their entire lives. This is a valid reason to doubt, but being a Christian is hard.

Suffering, even mental suffering like doubts, is the way of the cross and suffering is ultiamtely what leads to real love, in Christian theology. For example, if you want to give your loved one a gift, you first have to work to acquire the resourecs to purchase the gift, and then the gift becomes a symbol of your suffering on behalf of the one you love. Suffering is a Divine thing, and it is what gives meaning to human life, when it leads to virtures.

If that happened, I'd grab the nearest person and ask if they saw Him too. If they didn't, I'd check into a psychiatric hospital.

lol I don't blame you I would do the same thing, minus the checking into a psychiatric hospital, that is unless my visions began hurting those around me lol. But if He did appear to you and your friend also confirmed it, I imagine you would then believe and repent. I believe that God loves us more than anyone loves us and for this reason I believe that if there is any way by which we would come to salvation, short of eliminating our free will, He would do that. Including appearing to someone at the moment of their death to convince them with a first hand experience.

And you're hoping that God fits into that 1% that we don't yet understand, even though the 99% of the world we do understand lacks any evidence of his existence. That's just wishful thinking.

Well actually I think we know far less than 1% of what there is to know, and as as individual we know the smallest fraction of what there is to know. The fact is we do not know all that much. We do not even know the basics of how things work. Nobody knows for sure what gravity is. All we know is that things react a certain way, and we have incomplete theories as to why they do. My point was that we cannot even know the smallest thing to a 100% certainty. For example, I cannot even know 100% that I even exist, or the chair I am sitting in even exists. I can know it to a 99.9999% chance based on certain assumptions like I think therefore I am, but these are properly basic BELIEFS, not testable facts.

@Minimalist

But he didn't and it seems that the stories that claim he did are nothing but a pile of shit designed to con gullible fools.

But if He did would you repent and believe?

@Deistpal

That was most hateful and rude of you. You know that is offensive to me and many others. This is my thread about "My Escatological Vision" where I invite people to critique it and be honest with how they feel about it. Youre hateful insult contributes nothing to the conversation. It is a bad witness on your supposed seeking of the truth. I mean do you come to this forum to have honest discussions with people or to insult those who do not share your beliefs? I am certain that if I deliberately insulted your beliefs with no intention of contributing to the conversation whatsoever I would be "warned" or something. This looks like a double standard to me.

@pad

How long should one seek ?

I sought for about 24 years,from age 16, when I began seriously questioning Catholicism,to age 40,when I realised I was an atheist. Christianity went first.I found it to be the most fatuous of all the Abrahamic faiths.(it's a matter of degree)

Sincere,rational enquiry,looking for evidence,led me away from Christianity and all religions. I found no evidence ,and no belief.
I understand but do not agree with or respect beliefs based on faith.(ie unsupported by evidence) THAT is simple superstition.

The claim that sincere and rational enquiry will lead to Christianity is either a barefaced lie or pig ignorant stupidity. I can see no other alternatives

I think you should never quit seeking the truth, and you should honestly follow it where it takes you. Once you stop searching for the truth I think it would be like you stopped living. When I say searching for the truth I do not mean like reading a book constantly without fail, I mean living life with an openness to what is true. You can find truth in everything. Just so long as someone does not come to some point where the close their mind to any other possible world view. One should be sure of their beliefs but they should reamin humble in them. However, there is a point where humility becomes getting walked on, at that point one would be to humble. You have to find that golden mean of humility where you are not arrogant but you are not walked on.

Once again all beliefs are based at least in some measure on faith. For example, the simple faith statement that there is a Truth and that my senses can help me to find it is a properly basic belief that is not testable, and therefore not subject to scientific scrutiny. I can understand that beleif in God is to some more of a leap than belief in a truth. But I do believe that belief in God can be properly basic.

I agree that the claim that sincere and rational enquiry will always lead to Christianity is incorrect. There are many men who appear to be most sincere, like Ghandi for example, or maybe even Bertrand Russel, but they do not draw the same conclusion. What I believe is that they must have lacked the gift of faith and therefore God will judge them according to what they did with the gifts that God did give them. These men, I believe demonstrate their belief in God with their belief in Truth or Love. In purgatory I believe they wil acquire a more full understanding of who God is, and in heaven their understanding of God will eternally deepen. Perhaps it would be something like Jesus appearing to say Bertrand and revealing that all the while that he was sincerely searching truth he was actually searching for Jesus and Jesus has finally revealed Himself to him. Kind of like when Jesus appeared to Paul and said why are you persecuting Me your God. Then Paul realized that the whole time that he thought he was persecuting the enemies of God he was actually persecuting God. So it would be like a reverse of this situation lol.