Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: February 23, 2020, 7:58 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Hypatia, killing of
#1
Hypatia, killing of
Here's a short video of a historian explaining why Christians killed Hypatia.

So I guess we could say that the video is divided into few parts and in each part she says:

- how library was destroyed, first by wars and then by Christians who considered it pagan and then finished off by muslims

- how there was no tension between neo platonists and Christians, that there was no religious reason for Hypatia to be killed (although historian seems to contradict herself later)

- how bishop Cyril (or should I say St. Cyril) saw that Hypatia was a popular scholar and in his jealousy decided to kill her; then historian tries to explain that Christians saw Hypatia as symbol of free thinking and they didn't want that, but that they wanted something like autocracy by bishops (so it seems there were religious reasons for her death)

- description of the process of Hypatia's killing by Christians inside that church

- how contemporaries of the time blamed Bishop Cyril for Hypatia's death and that bishop usurped violence on the streets

- how some later leaders of the Christianity referred to Hypatia as a witch



teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
Reply
#2
RE: Hypatia, killing of
(November 12, 2019 at 12:51 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Here's a short video of a historian explaining why Christians killed Hypatia.

So I guess we could say that the video is divided into few parts and in each part she says:

- how library was destroyed, first by wars and then by Christians who considered it pagan and then finished off by muslims

- how there was no tension between neo platonists and Christians, that there was no religious reason for Hypatia to be killed (although historian seems to contradict herself later)

- how bishop Cyril (or should I say St. Cyril) saw that Hypatia was a popular scholar and in his jealousy decided to kill her; then historian tries to explain that Christians saw Hypatia as symbol of free thinking and they didn't want that, but that they wanted something like autocracy by bishops (so it seems there were religious reasons for her death)

- description of the process of Hypatia's killing by Christians inside that church

- how contemporaries of the time blamed Bishop Cyril for Hypatia's death and that bishop usurped violence on the streets

- how some later leaders of the Christianity referred to Hypatia as a witch




Thank you for making an effort to find the truth of this. It's sad that some people repeat an over-simple propagandistic version. And it's sad that a big-shot movie spread a fictional version.

The different factions in Alexandria in those days often settled political or power struggles through violence. This may seem primitive to us, but in fact our own country does it too -- we are just a little bit more removed from the violence. (see: current US-backed coup in Bolivia)

Christians killed Neoplatonists, Neoplatonists killed Christians. Jews weren't blameless, either. Neoplatonist teachers beside Hypatia continued working unmolested in Alexandria. 

The remains of the great library were housed in the Serapeum, a temple to the creator-god Serapis. Nobody knows how many scrolls remained from the original number; they were not destroyed out of a desire to suppress knowledge. 

Hypatia herself was a Neoplatonist philosopher who believed that the One (much like the Christian God) emanates the Nous, which in turn emanates the World Soul. Each of us has a miniature version of the World Soul as our own soul. Our goal is to live in such a way that the soul returns at death to the One. In other words, if she were posting on this forum several frequent posters would call her an idiot.
Reply
#3
RE: Hypatia, killing of
(November 12, 2019 at 1:26 am)Belacqua Wrote: . In other words, if she were posting on this forum several frequent posters would call her an idiot.

She might be criticized (although she would probably be an atheist by now) but at least she wouldn't have been murdered by atheists like she was by Christians.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
Reply
#4
RE: Hypatia, killing of
(November 12, 2019 at 1:58 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: she would probably be an atheist by now

If she were completely different she would be different. 

You are just assuming that someone smart would necessarily agree with you. That isn't always the case.

Quote:but at least she wouldn't have been murdered by atheists like she was by Christians.

If she were at the center of a political or power struggle, and the people who opposed her were atheists, they might kill her. 

Do you think that power-hungry people in the US government, or in the lithium industry (the proximate cause of the coup in Bolivia, most likely) kill because they're Christian? Do you think that atheist CEOs are less likely to command violence than other CEOs? 

In real history, she was not killed over a scientific issue, like heliocentrism. She was not killed over a religious issue, like whether the Neoplatonic Hypostases are the same as the Christian Trinity. She was killed over a local power struggle.
Reply
#5
RE: Hypatia, killing of
(November 12, 2019 at 2:31 am)Belacqua Wrote: She was not killed over a religious issue, like whether the Neoplatonic Hypostases are the same as the Christian Trinity. She was killed over a local power struggle.

Not according to historians, as in the 1st post is stated "then historian tries to explain that Christians saw Hypatia as symbol of free thinking and they didn't want that, but that they wanted something like autocracy by bishops (so it seems there were religious reasons for her death)"
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
Reply
#6
RE: Hypatia, killing of
(November 12, 2019 at 4:46 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:
(November 12, 2019 at 2:31 am)Belacqua Wrote: She was not killed over a religious issue, like whether the Neoplatonic Hypostases are the same as the Christian Trinity. She was killed over a local power struggle.

Not according to historians, as in the 1st post is stated "then historian tries to explain that Christians saw Hypatia as symbol of free thinking and they didn't want that, but that they wanted something like autocracy by bishops (so it seems there were religious reasons for her death)"

First, you are an obvious bigot so I can't trust anything you say to be impartial and accurate. 

Second, a desire for autocracy is a desire for power, which is what I said they wanted.
Reply
#7
RE: Hypatia, killing of
(November 12, 2019 at 4:48 am)Belacqua Wrote: First, you are an obvious bigot so I can't trust anything you say to be impartial and accurate. 

I am not a bigot and I did give you a video from a historian.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
Reply
#8
RE: Hypatia, killing of
(November 12, 2019 at 5:03 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:
(November 12, 2019 at 4:48 am)Belacqua Wrote: First, you are an obvious bigot so I can't trust anything you say to be impartial and accurate. 

I am not a bigot and I did give you a video from a historian.

Both the historian in the video, and the original source, Socrates Scholasticus, say that she was killed due to a conflict over who would run the city. 

The lady in the video has jazzed things up a little to make a good story. We don't know exactly why the mob hated Hypatia; there is no contemporary source that says she was a "symbol of free thinking." Granted, the people who killed her thought she was wrong, and it is natural for people not to want to be led by people who are wrong. 

The video also makes it sound as if no one tried to oppose Cyril for allegedly inciting the murder. But the Alexandrian Council thought he had acted badly and tried to get his power taken away. The emperor launched an investigation. He apparently survived due to judicious bribery. 

It may be that 4-minute videos from popular teaching companies are not the most complete sources to use. 

Here is a passage from page 113 of Hypatia; the Life and Legend of an Ancient Philosopher by Edward Watts, Oxford University Press, 2017. It gives some sense of the political squabbles of the time:

Quote:Orestes turned to Hypatia to build this coalition.21 Hypatia seemed
like the ultimate neutral arbiter. This was a moment when, Damascius
writes, “the name of philosophy seemed most esteemed and worthy of
honor to those who ran the affairs of the city,” and Hypatia embodied
the old Greek tradition of the publicly engaged, wise philosopher.22 Her
role was more than just symbolic. As a pagan who had not taken sides
in the disagreement between Cyril and Timothy, she had no preexisting
conflict with Cyril. While there is nothing to support the speculation
that Hypatia once taught Cyril, she and her students had worked productively
with Theophilus in the past.23 The community of students she
led exemplified the very sort of elite pagan- Christian cooperation that
Orestes now sought in the city. She was a good symbolic and practical
leader of Orestes’s anti- Cyrillian coalition.
Hypatia and Orestes met regularly at his home following
Ammonius’s attack. After a time, they were joined by a religiously
mixed group of Alexandrian elites.24 They likely spent most of their time
discussing how to manage tensions in the city in a way that minimized
conflict. Not long after their meetings began, Orestes and many of the
city’s other leading Christians stopped attending services at which
Cyril presided. This was perfectly reasonable after the recent attack
on Orestes by Ammonius and Cyril’s proclamation of Ammonius as
a martyr, but it looked far more insidious to Cyril and his supporters.
A pagan source tells us that Cyril soon grew jealous of the crowds who
flocked to Hypatia’s house and the influence she appeared to wield in
the city.25
Cyril’s supporters reacted with even more anger. The relationship
between the prefect and the bishop had become so poisonous that
Cyril’s partisans suspected that Orestes was actively plotting against
Cyril. A rumor began to spread that Hypatia had bewitched Orestes
through some strange combination of Pythagorean music, astrolabes,
and magic.26 The evidence for this is dubious, but those who believed the
rumor saw proof in the continued hostility between Cyril and Orestes,
the fact that Orestes had stopped attending church, and the absence of
many other leading Christians from services.27 Hypatia had little to do
with any of these things; they were natural result of elite anger at Cyril’s
celebration of Ammonius as a martyr.
Reply
#9
RE: Hypatia, killing of
I love how she:
1-Pronounce "Muslim" as "Muzlim"; like all the time she spent reading she didn't think about pronouncing the word right -is it intentional ?? -

2-"Muslim" never burned the library of Alexandria:

Quote:In AD 642, Alexandria was captured by the Muslim army of 'Amr ibn al-'As. Several later Arabic sources describe the library's destruction by the order of Caliph Omar.[118][119] Bar-Hebraeus, writing in the thirteenth century, quotes Omar as saying to Yaḥyā al-Naḥwī: "If those books are in agreement with the Quran, we have no need of them; and if these are opposed to the Quran, destroy them."[120] Later scholars, including Father Eusèbe Renaudot in 1793, are skeptical of these stories, given the range of time that had passed before they were written down and the political motivations of the various writers.[121][122][123][124][125]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria

The Caliphate that never touched the pyramids or the Egyptian temples would not touch the library of Alexandria.

Your source is weak; and time showed that you're nothing but a bigot with an agenda.

Reply
#10
RE: Hypatia, killing of
(November 12, 2019 at 5:56 am)Belacqua Wrote: The lady in the video has jazzed things up a little to make a good story.

Especially for you who constantly claims to know theology better than bishops and pope, knows science better than scientists and interprets history better than historians.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
Reply





Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)