The Shaming Of The True.

[Ranjr]

It's been a while since I saw the Burton/Taylor film.  I was going from the play.  Yes, Petruchio is a grifter, thief and not nice.  He learns and grows along the way.

[Brian37]

Antiquity was chalk full of patriarchy, not just Shakespeare's time.

One other mythology I find equally disturbing is that of the ancient Greek "Cassandra". Apollo was fond of her,(in that mythology), made a pass at her which she rejected. He ends up cursing her with the gift of prophecy, but with the caveat nobody would believe her. Typical power and control story. Not only that, another minor character "Ajax" rapes her in all this.

And I will NOT mention that ABBA wrote a song about Cassandra. 

[Brian37]

Not the version I saw.

In the version I saw, you still had the dowrey motif, and girls/women are not property to be bartered like back then. And Petruchio was a fucking stalker, assaulter and abuser in the version I saw. Since when is it ok to kidnap someone, force them to marry you, force them to move with you, then when you don't tidy the house you starve them? That is not love, that is abuse.

If the play made you uncomfortable, then Shakespeare got what he wanted.  In the late 16th century, arranged marriages were beginning to fade out, and 'Taming of the Shrew' is (I think) at least partly a critical commentary on the old way of doing things.

Boru

If you go read my prior posts, I was thinking this.

Often in human history, in media, back then, and even today, social norms and stereotypes are used to open the door to question them.

Even Big Bang Theory today, uses the geek/nerd/OCD motif to get society to question the old "men don't cry and should always be Rambo." 

It would not surprise me one bit that Shakespeare was telling females, "stand up for yourself." But it was still done in the tone of the social norms of it's time.

Even with atheists, there was an episode of Moonlighting, where Maddie flat out denied the existence of God. David flipped out over that. But at the end of that episode, it was implied that Maddie was willing to reconsider. 

They painted her in that episode as cold, materialistic. But, what I did appreciate at the time was the fact, and mind you "not believing" was not a subject widely shown on prime time TV in the 80s. 

Point is, if you want to claim he was opening the door for women, I can buy that. But the plot still gives me a lip twitch, knowing how far females have progressed since.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

If the play made you uncomfortable, then Shakespeare got what he wanted.  In the late 16th century, arranged marriages were beginning to fade out, and 'Taming of the Shrew' is (I think) at least partly a critical commentary on the old way of doing things.

Boru

If you go read my prior posts, I was thinking this.

Often in human history, in media, back then, and even today, social norms and stereotypes are used to open the door to question them.

Even Big Bang Theory today, uses the geek/nerd/OCD motif to get society to question the old "men don't cry and should always be Rambo." 

It would not surprise me one bit that Shakespeare was telling females, "stand up for yourself." But it was still done in the tone of the social norms of it's time.

Even with atheists, there was an episode of Moonlighting, where Maddie flat out denied the existence of God. David flipped out over that. But at the end of that episode, it was implied that Maddie was willing to reconsider. 

They painted her in that episode as cold, materialistic. But, what I did appreciate at the time was the fact, and mind you "not believing" was not a subject widely shown on prime time TV in the 80s. 

Point is, if you want to claim he was opening the door for women, I can buy that. But the plot still gives me a lip twitch, knowing how far females have progressed since.

No, I'm not claiming that Shakespeare was opening the door for women.  The door was already open.  What Shakespeare was doing was commenting on the mess on the other side of the door.

If you'd read Shakespeare's plays instead of watch them, you'd understand that he wasn't a particularly big fan of women or women's rights.

Boru

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Antiquity was chalk full of patriarchy, not just Shakespeare's time.

One other mythology I find equally disturbing is that of the ancient Greek "Cassandra". Apollo was fond of her,(in that mythology), made a pass at her which she rejected. He ends up cursing her with the gift of prophecy, but with the caveat nobody would believe her. Typical power and control story. Not only that, another minor character "Ajax" rapes her in all this.

And I will NOT mention that ABBA wrote a song about Cassandra. 

Actually, in most versions of the story, Apollo offered her the gift of prophecy in return for a shag.  She agreed, got the gift, and then reneged on her part of the deal.  The curse to not be believed was a punishment not for refusing to fuck Apollo, but for breaking her word.

And Ajax got what was coming to him, so it all evened out in the end.

Boru

[Brian37]

Antiquity was chalk full of patriarchy, not just Shakespeare's time.

One other mythology I find equally disturbing is that of the ancient Greek "Cassandra". Apollo was fond of her,(in that mythology), made a pass at her which she rejected. He ends up cursing her with the gift of prophecy, but with the caveat nobody would believe her. Typical power and control story. Not only that, another minor character "Ajax" rapes her in all this.

And I will NOT mention that ABBA wrote a song about Cassandra. 

Actually, in most versions of the story, Apollo offered her the gift of prophecy in return for a shag.  She agreed, got the gift, and then reneged on her part of the deal.  The curse to not be believed was a punishment not for refusing to fuck Apollo, but for breaking her word.

And Ajax got what was coming to him, so it all evened out in the end.

Boru

Yes which is why Ajax was still considered a hero after raping her.

It still does not change that Apollo who was the god in power used his position to bully her. She agreed like a rape victim agrees to survive. That is not the same as mutual consent.

---

Think about what you are saying Boru, Apollo in the old mythology, didn't give her the gift of prophecy because he was altruistic. He wanted to get laid. He gave it to her as a punishment., because  she wouldn't fuck him. On top of allowing Ajax to rape her. That is not an "agreement" on her part, anymore than a bank robbery hostage opening the vault is an agreement.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Actually, in most versions of the story, Apollo offered her the gift of prophecy in return for a shag.  She agreed, got the gift, and then reneged on her part of the deal.  The curse to not be believed was a punishment not for refusing to fuck Apollo, but for breaking her word.

And Ajax got what was coming to him, so it all evened out in the end.

Boru

Yes which is why Ajax was still considered a hero after raping her.

It still does not change that Apollo who was the god in power used his position to bully her. She agreed like a rape victim agrees to survive. That is not the same as mutual consent.

---

Think about what you are saying Boru, Apollo in the old mythology, didn't give her the gift of prophecy because he was altruistic. He wanted to get laid. He gave it to her as a punishment., because  she wouldn't fuck him. On top of allowing Ajax to rape her. That is not an "agreement" on her part, anymore than a bank robbery hostage opening the vault is an agreement.

You have a great obstinacy when it comes to getting things wrong.  Ajax was killed by the gods for raping Cassandra (which god depends on which version of the story you read).

No, Apollo didn't give her the gift of prophecy as a punishment.  He gave it to her so she'd agree to shag him.  Imagine the conversation:

Apollo:  I'm horny.  Fancy a shag?

Cassandra: Umm...

Apollo:  C'mon - I'll make you a prophetess.

Cassandra:  Ok, cool.

Apollo:  *zing*  Now you have the gift of prophecy.  Out of those robes, Toots.

Cassandra:  Ha ha.  You can't take back the gift.  No nookie for YOU, pal.

Apollo:  Grr.  Ok, but no one will believe your prophecies.  See how that works out for you.

And if any of the gods bears responsibility for Ajax raping Cassandra, it's Athena, not Apollo.

Boru

[Brian37]

Yes which is why Ajax was still considered a hero after raping her.

It still does not change that Apollo who was the god in power used his position to bully her. She agreed like a rape victim agrees to survive. That is not the same as mutual consent.

---

Think about what you are saying Boru, Apollo in the old mythology, didn't give her the gift of prophecy because he was altruistic. He wanted to get laid. He gave it to her as a punishment., because  she wouldn't fuck him. On top of allowing Ajax to rape her. That is not an "agreement" on her part, anymore than a bank robbery hostage opening the vault is an agreement.

You have a great obstinacy when it comes to getting things wrong.  Ajax was killed by the gods for raping Cassandra (which god depends on which version of the story you read).

No, Apollo didn't give her the gift of prophecy as a punishment.  He gave it to her so she'd agree to shag him.  Imagine the conversation:

Apollo:  I'm horny.  Fancy a shag?

Cassandra: Umm...

Apollo:  C'mon - I'll make you a prophetess.

Cassandra:  Ok, cool.

Apollo:  *zing*  Now you have the gift of prophecy.  Out of those robes, Toots.

Cassandra:  Ha ha.  You can't take back the gift.  No nookie for YOU, pal.

Apollo:  Grr.  Ok, but no one will believe your prophecies.  See how that works out for you.

And if any of the gods bears responsibility for Ajax raping Cassandra, it's Athena, not Apollo.

Boru

Yes blame the female, which is pretty much the motif of all of the patriarchal antiquity in all religions.

---

Name me one goddess of antiquity who is the top god. There isn't one.  There are only goddesses in in mythology who serve to be props to make the top male  god/s look good, but nothing more than that.

---

My favorite spoof of The Taming Of The Shrew. Moonlighting version.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

You have a great obstinacy when it comes to getting things wrong.  Ajax was killed by the gods for raping Cassandra (which god depends on which version of the story you read).

No, Apollo didn't give her the gift of prophecy as a punishment.  He gave it to her so she'd agree to shag him.  Imagine the conversation:

Apollo:  I'm horny.  Fancy a shag?

Cassandra: Umm...

Apollo:  C'mon - I'll make you a prophetess.

Cassandra:  Ok, cool.

Apollo:  *zing*  Now you have the gift of prophecy.  Out of those robes, Toots.

Cassandra:  Ha ha.  You can't take back the gift.  No nookie for YOU, pal.

Apollo:  Grr.  Ok, but no one will believe your prophecies.  See how that works out for you.

And if any of the gods bears responsibility for Ajax raping Cassandra, it's Athena, not Apollo.

Boru

Yes blame the female, which is pretty much the motif of all of the patriarchal antiquity in all religions.

---

Name me one goddess of antiquity who is the top god. There isn't one.  There are only goddesses in in mythology who serve to be props to make the top male  god/s look good, but nothing more than that.

---

My favorite spoof of The Taming Of The Shrew. Moonlighting version.

Cassandra gets the blame because she was the one at fault.  She could have rejected the gift of prophecy to begin with and Apollo would have left her alone (he was no stranger to rejection).  The gift wasn't a punishment, it was an inducement.  She was only cursed after she reneged on the deal and AFTER she was given the gift of prophecy.

________

Amaterasu, the Japanese sun goddess is generally regarded as top dog.  So (probably) is Danu, the Irish mother goddess.  The Morrigan (Irish again) was a goddess of war and fate.  While she wasn't at the top, she can't reasonably be expected to fulfill the role of making male gods 'look good'.

That's three.  I could probably find more, but those are just off the top of my head.

Boru

[Brian37]

And to Boru, I hate Iambic Pentameter too. Hint, watch the Moonlighting spoof I just posted.

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How the fuck was Casandra at fault?

I don't care if she was a stripper or hooker or porn star, or a married woman. When a female says no, that means NO!