The Hearsay Contract

[Minimalist]

is it really someone's choice to be saved when they're told that if they aren't they will spend eternity burning in hell?

I think the better legal term would be "fraud."

[Godscreated]

You have made a positive statement about hearsay, now if you will, please prove your statement.
Apophenia is correct in saying that salvation is by grace and grace alone, salvation is a gift as defined in scripture, it really doesn't matter how you define salvation the original definition set forth in scripture is the reference mark by which one must hold.

"Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another person concerning some event, condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay

In the case of the contract of salvation, Christians rely on information that was provided to them by other people, specifically, the Bible, or "scripture". It is a fact that the majority of the authors of the new testament are unknown, so not only is the information second-hand, it comes from unknown sources (which were written well after the supposed death of Jesus, in any event).

Regardless of which definition of salvation you subscribe to, the information upon which you base your definition is hearsay - it is not information which you personally know to be correct, but which you have assumed to be correct because someone else said so.

To you it may seem as hearsay, however for me through my personal experience it is indeed fact.
What proof do you have that the authors of the NT are unknown. When did you expect them to write the NT, Jesus ministry was only three years and during this time His disciples were busy learning what He was teaching. It seems only natural that the events of Christ's life and His teachings would be written after His death and resurrection, His ministry wasn't complete until His ascension. Then Paul wrote a great deal of the NT and he did not come along until after Christ's ministry.

[Minimalist]

Jesus ministry was only three years

Your fables don't even agree on that.

[ozgoat]

To you it may seem as hearsay, however for me through my personal experience it is indeed fact.

It is NOT a fact! It is a belief that needs blind faith to feed and sustain that belief.

[Captain Scarlet]

To you it may seem as hearsay, however for me through my personal experience it is indeed fact.

Why don't theists stop using personal experience? Not only is in the ultimate in subjectivity and thereby by definition NOT A FACT, but it is total bollocks. If anyone has to grant you that your personal experiences are indeed FACT, they would also have to grant that the experiences of muslims, hindus, zoratrians etc arfe also FACT (as their claims are no better/worse), as well as those who claim that god told them to kill (ie those normally described as the mentally ill). The only difference being that judging by the records of the OT those that heard god telling them to kill, have a better claim to authenticity than the others.

[Minimalist]

Why don't theists stop using personal experience?

Because they have nothing else and simply cannot believe that we do not regard their delusions in the same way they do.

Really, its a personality flaw.

[theVOID]

Well said Min.

Nor do they seem to realise that for them to value their own experience to the point where they pursue positive belief is to reject all of the other experiences contradictory to their own - It's a kind of self-centred jackassness that deserves zero respect.

It's even worse when they pull out the whole 'it's the same god' thing... No retard, it's not the same God, one of you are certain via experience that this God came to earth in human form and one of you is certain he didn't, that means either ONE of your experiences was wrong or they BOTH were - You don't get to bypass the law of non contradiction when it suits.

[Captain Scarlet]

Why don't theists stop using personal experience?

Because they have nothing else and simply cannot believe that we do not regard their delusions in the same way they do.

Really, its a personality flaw.

Thats not fair min lets look at all the arguments for god.............theres the universe one, oh and doesn't it look designed, and morality (and other abstract notions) where did they come from............err thats it. Impressive stuff.

[KichigaiNeko]

Well said Min.

Nor do they seem to realise that for them to value their own experience to the point where they pursue positive belief is to reject all of the other experiences contradictory to their own - It's a kind of self-centred jackassness that deserves zero respect.

Or a mind set worthy of a two year old child...?

[Strongbad]

To you it may seem as hearsay, however for me through my personal experience it is indeed fact.
What proof do you have that the authors of the NT are unknown. When did you expect them to write the NT, Jesus ministry was only three years and during this time His disciples were busy learning what He was teaching. It seems only natural that the events of Christ's life and His teachings would be written after His death and resurrection, His ministry wasn't complete until His ascension. Then Paul wrote a great deal of the NT and he did not come along until after Christ's ministry.

To me it may "seem" as hearsay? Let me let you in on a little secret: hearsay is not subject to interpretation. If someone says that someone else said something, that is hearsay, whether it "seems" like it to you or not. Personal experience can not change statements defined as hearsay into facts. All of your beliefs regarding Christian salvation are based on hearsay, period.

Even if the authors of the NT were known (most of them are not), what they wrote was based on what someone else told them had happened. This is especially true of Paul, who never met the alleged Jesus, but wrote what others told him about what Jesus allegedly did or said. Furthermore, it "seems only natural" to me that there would have been some contemporary historical accounts of the miracles that Jesus purportedly performed, but in fact, there are none.