Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 28, 2024, 9:28 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
RE: Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
Sure, you're a product of your dna and nature - but so too is everyone who does anything that you take moral issue with. If you mean this in the sense that, descriptively, our dna and nature determine what we think is best -this position is called biological relativism. If, additionally, you believe that some things really are best, and best in a way not equivalent to whatever a persons dna and nature might compel them to believe (aka, assholes exist), then you reject biological relativism at a metaphysical level.

Descriptively, you believe it to be true of our species. Morally, you believe it to be true that nature really fucked up with our species. It's not clear what we do that other species do not, or what makes us a great example of a natural fuckup - but I'll grant that it's a very common perception which probably has a bit to do with our cultural heritage.

-nd I want to make a special note here, about sounding religious. When we try to come up with a simple description of the content of your stated position - we get something like "This is not the way that people -should be-, even if it is the way they are" and with respect to sounding religious....well....that's because the religious make an equivalent moral claim - it's the defining aspect of a religion. That there is a way that things should be - and that insomuch as things are that way, it is because they should be that way, and insomuch as things are not that way, we are committed to changing them.

There's nothing wrong with sounding religious or even being religious - but there very much is something wrong if a person proceeds on religious facts which are in error -and- that error is of moral import. The error of nature as arbitor of human morality is just such an error. We are not attempting (or, at least, we contend that we are not attempting), with respect to morality, to ape what we see in nature.

As a moral agent, I cannot eat another agent alive, asshole first - as a biological agent...I very much can and will. We don't have to let the utilitarian cruelty of nature determine what's best for human beings, though we often have - and that's when the murders began.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
(January 28, 2021 at 11:55 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Sure, you're a product of your dna and nature - but so too is everyone who does anything that you take moral issue with.  If you mean this in the sense that, descriptively, our dna and nature determine what we think is best -this position is called biological relativism.  If, additionally, you believe that some things really are best, and best in a way not equivalent to whatever a persons dna and nature might compel them to believe (aka, assholes exist), then you reject biological relativism at a metaphysical level.

Descriptively, you believe it to be true of our species.  Morally, you believe it to be true that nature really fucked up with our species.  It's not clear what we do that other species do not, or what makes us a great example of a natural fuckup - but I'll grant that it's a very common perception which probably has a bit to do with our cultural heritage.

-nd I want to make a special note here, about sounding religious.  When we try to come up with a simple description of the content of your stated position - we get something like "This is not the way that people -should be-, even if it is the way they are, and with respect to sounding religious....well....that's because the religious make an equivalent moral claim - it's the defining aspect of a religion.  That there is a way that things should be - and that insomuch as things are that way, it is because they should be that way, and insomuch as things are not that way, we are committed to changing them.

There's nothing wrong with sounding religious or even being religious - but there very much is something wrong if a person proceeds on religious facts which are in error -and- that error is of moral import.  The error of nature as arbitor of human morality is just such an error.  We are not attempting (or, at least, we contend that we are not attempting), with respect to morality, to ape what we see in nature, as much of what we see in nature appalls us and would be appalling and has been appalling when we assert it's primacy in our moral reckoning or intuition.

As a moral agent, I cannot eat another agent alive, asshole first - as a biological agent...I very much can and will.

Moral import does not apply to the religious. What their gods wants, moral or not, they will give.

That is how we got homophobia and misogyny.

Have you ever tried to engage Christians in moral discussions? Nearly impossible that. They know they have no decent moral tenets to follow nor can they justify Yahweh's.


Errors from the religious, stems from their initial premise and lie that their god is real.

The delusion must end before the moral cowards will judge their vile gods justly.

Regards
DL
Reply
RE: Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
[Image: icon_quote.jpg]This guy:
Religious asshats who preach hate, are colossal fuckwits!

[Image: icon_quote.jpg]GIA:
I disagree but for everyone, not just the religious.

Well obviously asshats exist in all walks of life, you were asking about the religious specifically.
Reply
RE: Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
(January 28, 2021 at 12:17 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Moral import does not apply to the religious. What their gods wants, moral or not, they will give.
It very much does.  Confusing a claim of divinity with the central religious claim of that divinity's faith would be a mistake.  It's the difference between "god exists", and "god saves".  Even more broadly, there's no requirement of the one for the other.  Any moral assertion about the sacred, however the sacred is defined or described, is a religious assertion by nature, and the only difference between them at this level is the number of people who hold it.  It takes more than a single person for a thematically religious assertion to be onsidered a religion in practice.  Or, as the christians like to say, anywhere where two or three gather.

Quote:That is how we got homophobia and misogyny.
Absolutely not.  Religions may service homophobia and misogny, they don't create it - and the worlds contemporary religions couldn't have created those things even if some religion did.  They're all babies.  Axial faith is to religious belief what a newborn is to a parent if we counted years by the thousands.        

Quote:Have you ever tried to engage Christians in moral discussions? Nearly impossible that. They know they have no decent moral tenets to follow nor can they justify Yahweh's.
All the time.   I think that axial faith has flooded the zone with shit, and that doesn't effect the faithful alone.  If it did, we might not have as strong a reservation against some of it as we do.

Quote:Errors from the religious, stems from their initial premise and lie that their god is real.

The delusion must end before the moral cowards will judge their vile gods justly.

Regards
DL
I think that you might find that to be a misperception on your part, at least with respect t the vast majority of religious people...and insomuch as you hold it, it may be down to the religious miscommunicating their own positions.  That's been my experience, from alot of discussions with religious people.  Atheists, evangelicals, pagans, gnostic christans.....
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
I agree with your first.

"I think that you might find that to be a misperception on your part"

I never have misconceptions. Kidding.

If you were correct about Christian morality and right judging, then more Christians would adopt the label of demiurge for Yahweh and would call themselves Gnostic Christians.

Regards
DL
Reply
RE: Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
As christians, you both do accept equivalent religious claims - that christ is savior.

Just as we might confuse natural facts for moral facts, we might confuse facts of our superstitions with moral facts. You and a mainline christian have disparate superstitions, but you share the moral claim to sacred content, and, obviously, your natures as human beings.

It may be that no fact of your religion or your superstitions accurately reflects or establishes any moral fact, in fact - and I personally believe that you're both in the same situation on that count. There is literally nothing of moral import in either of your religions. The only moral import to either of your religions surrounds your willingness to assert or enforce your religious beliefs. That's consequential, even if your positions on the specific matters are utterly and completely vacuous.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
(January 28, 2021 at 2:53 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
Quote:As christians, you both do accept equivalent religious claims - that christ is savior.

Good god no. Christians need saving because they think Yahweh condemned them.

Gnostic Christians do not believe in a real Yahweh or blood sacrifice of Jesus and the only saving we think we need is from thinking like the immoral literalists who adore a genocidal prick.
Quote:Just as we might confuse natural facts for moral facts, we might confuse facts of our superstitions with moral facts.  You and a mainline christian have disparate superstitions, but you share the moral claim to sacred content, and, obviously, your natures as human beings.

Gnostic Christians have no superstitions. We are thinkers, realists and naturalists who use logic and reason, not delusional.

To us, nothing is sacred unless we label it so. The same applies to holy.


Quote:It may be that no fact of your religion or your superstitions accurately reflects or establishes any moral fact, in fact - and I personally believe that you're both in the same situation on that count.  There is literally nothing of moral import in either of your religions.  The only moral import to either of your religions surrounds your willingness to assert or enforce your religious beliefs.  That's consequential, even if your positions on the specific matters are utterly and completely vacuous.
Too general.

Moral tenets are not exclusive to religions and our seem to apply universally. Not surprising given that we are Universalists.

That may not seem consequential to some, but that prevents us from the discrimination without a just cause that Christians perpetrate against half of society.

We assert. We have no enforcement. We leave those tools of inquisitions and jihads to others.

Regards
DL
Reply
RE: Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
(January 28, 2021 at 3:47 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Good god no. Christians need saving because they think Yahweh condemned them.

Gnostic Christians do not believe in a real Yahweh or blood sacrifice of Jesus and the only saving we think we need is from thinking like the immoral literalists who adore a genocidal prick.

Gnostic Christians have no superstitions. We are thinkers, realists and naturalists who use logic and reason, not delusional.

To us, nothing is sacred unless we label it so. The same applies to holy.
Gnostic christians believe that christ is savior.  You may not, but gnostic christians do.  That's why the term "christian" applies.  

Gnostic christians who believe that their superstitions are realistic, natural, logical, or reasonable would not have been the first christians to believe as much, or the first superstitious people to have made that mistake.

Quote:Too general.

Moral tenets are not exclusive to religions and our seem to apply universally. Not surprising given that we are Universalists.

That may not seem consequential to some, but that prevents us from the discrimination without a just cause that Christians perpetrate against half of society.

We assert. We have no enforcement. We leave those tools of inquisitions and jihads to others.

Regards
DL
OFC moral statements aren't exclusive to religions, but it is exclusive to the categorization -as- a religion to contain a moral claim referent to the sacred around which people identify in common.  Christ is a title, not a last name. Every christian doesn't have to believe the same things about some fact of god, but to be christian, they must agree with the fact of christ.

Do you think that it might be the case that there is a better -which is to say more accurate - term for the position you hold, than gnostic christianity?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
(January 28, 2021 at 3:59 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(January 28, 2021 at 3:47 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Good god no. Christians need saving because they think Yahweh condemned them.

Gnostic Christians do not believe in a real Yahweh or blood sacrifice of Jesus and the only saving we think we need is from thinking like the immoral literalists who adore a genocidal prick.

Gnostic Christians have no superstitions. We are thinkers, realists and naturalists who use logic and reason, not delusional.

To us, nothing is sacred unless we label it so. The same applies to holy.
Gnostic christians believe that christ is savior.  You may not, but gnostic christians do.  That's why the term "christian" applies.  

Gnostic christians who believe that their superstitions are realistic, natural, logical, or reasonable would not have been the first christians to believe as much, or the first superstitious people to have made that mistake.

Quote:Too general.

Moral tenets are not exclusive to religions and our seem to apply universally. Not surprising given that we are Universalists.

That may not seem consequential to some, but that prevents us from the discrimination without a just cause that Christians perpetrate against half of society.

We assert. We have no enforcement. We leave those tools of inquisitions and jihads to others.

Regards
DL
OFC moral statements aren't exclusive to religions, but it is exclusive to the categorization -as- a religion to contain a moral claim referent to the sacred around which people identify in common.  Christ is a title, not a last name.  Every christian doesn't have to believe the same things about some fact of god, but to be christian, they must agree with the fact of christ.

Do you think that it might be the case that there is a better -which is to say more accurate - term for the position you hold, than gnostic christianity?

Got to be careful with the word sacred. Christians think it applies to their vile satanic god.

I agree that Jesus should not be called Christ as he was never officially anointed. 

The facts of which Jesus and Christ?

There are more than one archetypal Jesus in scriptures.

Too long to show here but there is the Roman creation. The wimp who sucks their tit, and there is the esoteric ecumenist and more mystical Jesus who somehow was not edited out.

Christianity never quotes that Gnostic Jesus, but when we Gnostic Christians do, Christians run away.

Regards
DL
Reply
RE: Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?
(January 28, 2021 at 4:15 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Got to be careful with the word sacred. Christians think it applies to their vile satanic god.
The word very explicitly applies to anything and everything any person holds a genuine belief as-such in.  

That we might take issue with some other persons sacred does not change the fact that it is what is sacred to them.  

Quote:I agree that Jesus should not be called Christ as he was never officially anointed. 

The facts of which Jesus and Christ?

There are more than one archetypal Jesus in scriptures.

Too long to show here but there is the Roman creation. The wimp who sucks their tit, and there is the esoteric ecumenist and more mystical Jesus who somehow was not edited out.

Christianity never quotes that Gnostic Jesus, but when we Gnostic Christians do, Christians run away.

Regards
DL

If you have no belief in christ either literally or metaphorically - then you are in no way a christian, let alone a gnostic christian.  

The romans came up with alot of things, we'll have to do better than that - same with sucking tits.  To believe in the myth of a moral jesus is to believe in something just as superstitious as a dying and rising god. It would be a mistake to think that a concept, person or ideology is not superstitious so long as it avoids positing wizards and ghosts, wouldn't you agree?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  A majority Catholic country did this LinuxGal 4 644 September 7, 2023 at 5:46 am
Last Post: no one
  Women and Assault FrustratedFool 17 1109 September 2, 2023 at 2:52 pm
Last Post: arewethereyet
  Are conservatives in this country trying to turn 'Murica into Nazi Germany? Foxaèr 11 1385 May 6, 2022 at 8:22 pm
Last Post: BrianSoddingBoru4
  Let’s take their guns BrokenQuill92 141 9039 November 22, 2020 at 4:28 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Ukraine will become a developed country Interaktive 17 723 August 10, 2020 at 5:18 am
Last Post: BrianSoddingBoru4
  Equal pay for women's soccer or no Fed funding bill brewer 55 4635 August 4, 2019 at 7:25 am
Last Post: BrianSoddingBoru4
  Two Old Pros - Doing Their Thing Minimalist 8 940 November 28, 2018 at 3:48 pm
Last Post: BrianSoddingBoru4
  Palestinian rock throwing, but isnt that against their religion? Kimbi 1 495 September 4, 2018 at 1:52 pm
Last Post: Minimalist
  FOX Being Dragged Down By Their Anchor Minimalist 10 1566 August 23, 2018 at 3:38 pm
Last Post: Angrboda
  Norway is not a democratic socialist country. Bernie is lying KaiBerg02 51 5053 July 31, 2018 at 7:45 am
Last Post: The Industrial Atheist



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)