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The Watchmaker: my fav argument
February 27, 2021 at 2:30 pm
I actually really like to hear discussions of the Watchmaker argument and picking it apart. So, it's an appeal to the irreducible complexity argument in biology, where there are some things in nature that are so complex they must have an intelligent designer. Yet the analogy doesn't work at all. 
Because in the example, you're walking along a beach and find a watch. Based on your prior knowledge of watches and comparing it to the simplicity of the sand around it, supposedly, you can assume the watch was created by an intelligent designer. But that's a contrast that hinges on "things made by a human" and "things not made by a human". So, when making the analogy fit with "things created by God" the answer is "everything."
The complexity of a thing doesn't actually matter.
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RE: The Watchmaker: my fav argument
February 27, 2021 at 3:52 pm
(February 27, 2021 at 2:30 pm)Five Wrote: I actually really like to hear discussions of the Watchmaker argument and picking it apart. So, it's an appeal to the irreducible complexity argument in biology, where there are some things in nature that are so complex they must have an intelligent designer. Yet the analogy doesn't work at all.
Because in the example, you're walking along a beach and find a watch. Based on your prior knowledge of watches and comparing it to the simplicity of the sand around it, supposedly, you can assume the watch was created by an intelligent designer. But that's a contrast that hinges on "things made by a human" and "things not made by a human". So, when making the analogy fit with "things created by God" the answer is "everything."
The complexity of a thing doesn't actually matter.
"Complexity" does not equal a magic sky hero.
Viruses and bacteria are also complex.
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RE: The Watchmaker: my fav argument
February 27, 2021 at 3:56 pm
By this reasoning, would god's name be Rolex?
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RE: The Watchmaker: my fav argument
February 27, 2021 at 4:02 pm
(February 27, 2021 at 3:56 pm)no one Wrote: By this reasoning, would god's name be Rolex?
The "complexity" argument is bullshit because they are really arguing an an appeal to emotion, "Life has pretty things in it so a sky hero did it".
Yea, life is so pretty that whales and dolphins have a separate tube for breathing eating, whereas humans can choke to death if our throats get blocked.
That was so cleaver to allow humans do die coking on food.
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RE: The Watchmaker: my fav argument
February 27, 2021 at 4:04 pm
(February 27, 2021 at 2:30 pm)Five Wrote: Because in the example, you're walking along a beach and find a watch. Based on your prior knowledge of watches and comparing it to the simplicity of the sand around it, supposedly, you can assume the watch was created by an intelligent designer.
The reason we know watches are made by humans is because we know they are, and also because they don't have offsprings.
But I guess if some, how would I put it, uncivilized man found a watch on the beach maybe he would at first think it was some sort of an animal.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: The Watchmaker: my fav argument
February 27, 2021 at 4:22 pm
(February 27, 2021 at 4:04 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote: The reason we know watches are made by humans is because we know they are, and also because they don't have offsprings.
But I guess if some, how would I put it, uncivilized man found a watch on the beach maybe he would at first think it was some sort of an animal.
Yes! That's another angle of the same flaw. The analogy only works because of a comparison being made.
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RE: The Watchmaker: my fav argument
February 27, 2021 at 4:37 pm
(This post was last modified: February 27, 2021 at 4:38 pm by Peebothuhlu.)
At work.
In my mind after the watch building is brought up I thijk of volcanoes and the why aren't we worshipping the volcano building diety's like the Hawaiian's used to?
Then there ard the Aztec sun building dietys to worry about appeasing....
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RE: The Watchmaker: my fav argument
February 27, 2021 at 4:49 pm
(February 27, 2021 at 4:22 pm)Five Wrote: (February 27, 2021 at 4:04 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote: The reason we know watches are made by humans is because we know they are, and also because they don't have offsprings.
But I guess if some, how would I put it, uncivilized man found a watch on the beach maybe he would at first think it was some sort of an animal.
Yes! That's another angle of the same flaw. The analogy only works because of a comparison being made.
It is a false comparison in many ways because people would think that the watch was intelligently designed, and while they would be right in the watch case, people think that everything is intelligently designed (like rocks, sand, wind, etc.) unless they get an education to learn the difference.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: The Watchmaker: my fav argument
February 27, 2021 at 5:18 pm
(This post was last modified: February 27, 2021 at 5:21 pm by purplepurpose.)
It takes a lot of guts to persue God. Even if God shows up in person, it doesn't mean people will follow him. Jesus had A lot of haters. I mean, you proven God. Ok. But if you say that he is a holy tyrant, your proofs doesn't help a lot.
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RE: The Watchmaker: my fav argument
February 27, 2021 at 5:22 pm
(February 27, 2021 at 5:18 pm)purplepurpose Wrote: It takes a lot of guts to persue God. Even if God shows up in person, it doesn't mean people will follow him. Jesus had A lot of haters.
When the sky is blue, sometimes it rains. You can drink rain water if you catch it in a clean container.
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