Adulterous woman

[The Grand Nudger]

You really think the idea that magic book is a fortune telling device is irrefutable?

[Drich]

the law also states they must be in good standing with God.

. . . .

And the 3 part of this law is the accuser must also be in good standing with God as they are commanded to purge all evil from among them. which is why jesus was writing on the ground a list of sins so great their guilt forced them to walk away.

Where is your scriptural support for this point?  Since John 8 is the passage in question, you can't use John 8, as that would be circular.  What scripture supports this?

I established the law/the three points concerning stoning in my first post with a link to a study from got questions which gives all scripture on the subject and a explanation. I did that so all who want to have an informed discussion can start at the same place.

I read the article you cited, and it does nothing to support your point.  Perhaps you're simply not explaining it well.

appearently you did not understand what was read or looked at the verses provided.

point one i made: there must be two witnesses: from the got questions website which quotes the book of deut: The Mosaic Law specified that, before anyone could be put to death by stoning, there had to be a trial, and at least two witnesses had to testify: “On the testimony of two or three witnesses a person is to be put to death, but no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness” (Deuteronomy 17:6).

point two i made, was the witness/accusor must throw the fist stone. the very next line says: Those witnesses “must be the first in putting that person to death, and then the hands of all the people” (verse 7). In other words, those who testified against the condemned person in court had to cast the first stone.

and the third point i made was one must be in good standing with God. the implication being that only the righteous can stone others or be in the position to make that call otherwise if they were not pure they themselves would be purged/stoned. and the quoted web page you claimed did not support anything i said seems to support my claims just find as this is the last paragraph:
Stoning is a horrible way to die. That particular manner of execution must have been a strong deterrent against committing the sins deemed offensive enough to merit stoning. God cares very much about the purity of His people. The strict punishment for sin during the time of the Law helped deter people from adopting the impure practices of their pagan neighbors and rebelling against God. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and Israel was given a stern commandment to stay pure: “You must purge the evil from among you” (Deuteronomy 17:7).
now the question is, did you lie when you claimed to read the reference material i provided? did you not understand what you read? or are you so biased truth has no bearing on how you think?
https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-stoning.html
please dont bother with questions if you do not care what the answer is, and are just waiting for your turn to talk again.

If I recall right, though, the new covenant means that getting right with God simply means having faith in Jesus.

no. two things. one Jesus has not died at this point to establish this new covenant which means the pharisees are currently under the old law which is why i quoted the old law. (blood is requirement to seal the deal on a covenant) AND even under the new purposed covenant, there is an element you are missing which Jesus talks in depth about.

 Probably something a Pharisee can't accomplish, but not something they would acknowledge either.

not while trying to entrap Jesus, by having a woman stoned. these are evil acts and manipulation of God's law to try and force a political enemy's hand in breaking the law of the current government. God is no fool.

 So your argument is that the law could not be carried out by persons who had sinned.  

two things i'm not pointing this out, John 8 is literally spelling this out for you in every single act and detail of this story. Two Jesus did not run these Pharisees off. he wrote out their own sins on the ground and john 8 says their own conscience forced them to leave, because they knew they were in violation of deut 17:7 (they were not in good standing and they too would be purged/stoned.) no matter what you want to argue, the point is they left as they knew they did not have a right to take a life of this woman without forfeiting their own life.

I see a problem with that in that the law would never be carried out, as the New Testament makes clear, all have sinned.  Yet, I suspect the law was carried out.  How do you explain that paradox?

they were not under the new testament they were under the old. which means 2/3s of sin could be forgiven on the spot with ritual animal sacrifice. however there was also capital sin which requires stoning. the idea here in john 8 is these accusers have secretly committed capital sin, and only they knew about. but forgot god sees all.

Jesus being the son of God was also privy to this, and was why he was writing out these sins on the ground without calling anyone out directly (4% literary rate the average joe would not understand but the priest did) while we can be sure they were cleansed by ritual sacrifice of the small sins, they were not absolved/in good standing with God on the larger sins.


(ETA: It also occurs to me that even if the witnesses should be stoned for their sins, since Jesus is the only witness to their sin, and the law requires two witnesses, Jesus' calling out their sins was without any practical effect.)
[/quote]
maybe the sins were bad enough that the mere accusation was enough for them to have all rank and privilege stripped from them even without a trial.. maybe they were all 'racists' or slave owners or misogynists' maybe they were closet republicans.. thats enough to have someone stoned now a days right?

or

if jesus knew what they had done he would also know when they would do it again.. as capitol sins are rarely a one and done kind of sin.

[vulcanlogician]

Enticed by thread title.

Disappointed by thread contents.

[Drich]

the passage in john explain the entrapment in a different way.. so you are 1/2 right.. yes they said according to the law of moses we should stone her. but roman authority would not allow such an execution. which they could parlay with the roman government into having him executed for trying to execute this woman.. or if he went against the law of moses could could then be identified as a false profit. so yes your 1/2 right the answer given though cited deut 17 which again requires the person doing the stoning/the accuser to also be in good standing with God or he too would be executed. not really a loop hole. but rather the law prevented evil men from manipulating the law to get their way. which is why those men dropped their stones. as they too could be found to be 'evil' for persecuting this woman with all the sin jesus was spelling out on the ground.

Yes, the christian passage in a christian book asserts a christian concept of law and the subjugation of the pharisees to a christian god...... surprise.  You'd have to be a cultist, and conveniently are a cultist, to believe that it happened in mere reality.

that is because you have not read the bible. and or you do not know the ot law well enough to make this call.

So again what happened here is based on the laws provided by moses which has three parts to it. the first says a death penalty violation must be witnessed by two or more people..

Then accuser primary must be the first to throw a stone.

the law also states they must be in good standing with God.

So here is what happened: a sinful men/pharisees brought a woman before christ caught in adultery. this only satisfy 1/3 of the law's requirements for stoning. In that a capital crime/sin was witnessed by two people. here is where you and the pharisees jumped the gun. because they were charging jesus with whether or not she should die when the accuser/witness was to make that call. they did this to entrap him.

so hebrew priest violation 1. A violation Jesus quickly identifies, and afford him time to write out their own sins.

And the 3 part of this law is the accuser must also be in good standing with God as they are commanded to purge all evil from among them. which is why jesus was writing on the ground a list of sins so great their guilt forced them to walk away.

now because Jesus was in good standing with God apparently the only one there who was in full compliance with God's law. and because he did not witness the crime like the pharisees did. he released her as he who could throw a stone didn't actually witness this sin.

Yes, our trickster hero got a whore out of a jam on a technicality.  He's a friend of women, you see.  Obviously, we wouldn't want our christian god to be a dummy that gets stumped by a gaggle of elderly jewish shamans.

there is far more documentation in period manuscript that says it did, than any that challenge it.

Yes, yes..we know...

again sport this story work so precisely with in the law with it's specific detail, no other outcome besides death could be possible if jesus did not know the hebrew laws so well. this story carefully navigates the hebrew law in away that only students of the law could fully appreciate. it is steeped with mastery and irony that you clearly you do not see. this would force any contemporary jewish rabbi in the same situation to yield the same way the Pharisees did, given the same details if they too observed the ot law as it was written. you don't seem to understand the main crux of any propaganda is there is very little truth or substance. here for anyone who has studied the OT law knows the depths the ot laws were used to "best" and humiliate these priests using the law provided by the OT. truthfully all bias aside, if this did not happen as described here, only a master rabbi could have written such a story to the extent and depth this was written. you know how some say i write in a 'gottacha' into my posts. there are at least 4 point where jesus 'got' the pharisees by using the law as it was written against them. and if you don't see that.. then youre not in a place to critique this story.

Yeah, the person who wrote it probably was somewhere between jewish and christian.  :   shrugs   :.....?

but based firmly in a culture that is verified by historians, (this sort of thing happened)  in a copy of hebrew law we still have access today, (we can verify what how jesus used the law)  with NO period correct detractors. (nothing from the time period which given all the different preists who could read and write and had access or ways to store their written works) kinda says this is more than a whimsical story treatment.

The story gives itself the treatment numbskull.  It announces itself as a theological narrative vehicle.  Which is fine, completely fine.  It leads you to exactly the conclusion that christianity desires.  Mission accomplished.  Bullshitting people about it, though, is optional.  You do you, and have fun accounting for false prophecy when you meet Jeezy Creezy.  Having known you for some time, I doubt you'll fare better than the pharisees.

lol... i guess this is about as good as i can expect from you. you get it albeit with the devils glasses slant.. I wasn't going to really say anything till your last bit. did you even think about the implication of your statement? 

If i am a known quantity, and the net result is a fate worse than that of the pharisees is an absolute. then that places you in the singular position to judge. which makes you christ.

Dang son.. even i dont have the tentacular fortitude  to claim or forcast the fate of another living soul. That's infact the very reason i am here. because IDK who ultimately will be saved. which is why despite personal feelings and fresh insults and constant barrage of hate i treat each question with full respect and reverence it is due. (even if i poop on the person asking from time to time) ... because i don't know. heck you could an assistant to the regional manager in heaven.

---

Enticed by thread title.

Disappointed by thread contents.

excited by the star trekean potential of the username. kinda meh-ed by the avatar.. almost embarrassed for member's lack of decorum (dis aint no peep show)

[vulcanlogician]

Enticed by thread title.

Disappointed by thread contents.

excited by the star trekean potential of the username. kinda meh-ed by the avatar.. almost embarrassed for member's lack of decorum (dis aint no peep show)

Luckily, I don't give a shit what you think about me.

And, by the way, my avatar is awesome. I bet you don't know shit about what my avatar is or what it represents. Yet you still have an opinion.

[The Grand Nudger]

If i am a known quantity, and the net result is a fate worse than that of the pharisees is an absolute. then that places you in the singular position to judge. which makes you christ.

Or maybe I just know a lying asshole when he opens his mouth?  Don't get me wrong, you're obviously the kind of person who thinks that a guy could be christ, so I guess I'm as good a stand in an as any other.  

Dang son.. even i dont have the tentacular fortitude  to claim or forcast the fate of another living soul. That's infact the very reason i am here. because IDK who ultimately will be saved. which is why despite personal feelings and fresh insults and constant barrage of hate i treat each question with full respect and reverence it is due. (even if i poop on the person asking from time to time) ... because i don't know. heck you could an assistant to the regional manager in heaven.

It's funny how little you guys believe in the fates you imagine for others when you consider it, instead, for yourselves.  You're here to satisfy a personal compulsion you have, nothing more or less, and it's all you've ever accomplished or ever will.  Anywho, I don't have any interest in getting into your heaven, and I'm not the kind of person they'd let in anyway - let alone be in charge of anything.  I guess there's always work for a dog who barks at the riff raff when it tries to climb the fence, though.

[Drich]

Or maybe I just know a lying asshole when he opens his mouth?

So if it is the ass hole that tells lies then would truth come out of the mouth?

  Don't get me wrong, you're obviously the kind of person who thinks that a guy could be christ, so I guess I'm as good a stand in an as any other.  

if you say so.. but then there's the whole false prophets thing too. might wanna have a little more in your quiver than your word if youre going to lead with your say so.

It's funny how little you guys believe in the fates you imagine for others when you consider it, instead, for yourselves. 

I've got a pretty good idea what is going to happen to those who do not want to share eternity with us. that is why i'm here. after my experience i vowed to help people like yourself make decisions based on God's truth found in the bible rather than the religious truth corrupting the world.

You're here to satisfy a personal compulsion you have, nothing more or less, and it's all you've ever accomplished or ever will. 

maybe... maybe not.. I am tasked to simply broadcast the seed. not make it grow. I am here to provide the truth for someone who has fallen through the cracks of religion, so they can make their own decision.

Anywho, I don't have any interest in getting into your heaven, and I'm not the kind of person they'd let in anyway - let alone be in charge of anything.  I guess there's always work for a dog who barks at the riff raff when it tries to climb the fence, though.

which is fine.. I don't care if you think this a lie or not, but i have shared this many times because it was my experience that the worst part of hell was the worm of 'what if' what if i knew the god of the bible rather than the god of the church? what if i knew the truth, would I have made the same decisions.. am i here because of the lies i thought were true in church? or would i live a life dedicated to God. I fully believe that once you come to terms with your choice the hell fire will be allowed to consume you. meaning you are set ablaze and will burn till you can confess Jesus is God and you are here because you chose to be. but if you have this doubt, or you feel you are being treated unfairly if stand behind the lies, the torment goes on.

I'm not here to get you into heaven, if you don't want to go. As not all are meant to serve. for you i'm here to help you make your time in hell as short as possible.

---

excited by the star trekean potential of the username. kinda meh-ed by the avatar.. almost embarrassed for member's lack of decorum (dis aint no peep show)

Luckily, I don't give a shit what you think about me.

And, by the way, my avatar is awesome. I bet you don't know shit about what my avatar is or what it represents. Yet you still have an opinion.

even more luckily-er.. i dont care about what you don't give a shite about.

oh and btw i do get what your avatar represents, but obvi, not to degree you have, as you clearly found your own meaning. whatever snowflake reason you chose to have Baruch Spinoza im sure it is to meant to display how pompous and smart you think yourself to be allowing you to make one or two line comments but to instill if bothered you could unleashe hell on a stupid person.. 

like i said before.. kinda meh-ed by the avatar. (as you fall into a common better than thou stereotype) 

[The Grand Nudger]

Or maybe I just know a lying asshole when he opens his mouth?

So if it is the ass hole that tells lies then would truth come out of the mouth?

In my experience, shit flows forth from any end of you, about every thing.

if you say so.. but then there's the whole false prophets thing too. might wanna have a little more in your quiver than your word if youre going to lead with your say so.

Yes, indeed.  There's that whole false prophets thing.  Good luck with that.

I've got a pretty good idea what is going to happen to those who do not want to share eternity with us. that is why i'm here. after my experience i vowed to help people like yourself make decisions based on God's truth found in the bible rather than the religious truth corrupting the world.

You've got a pretty good idea about a fetish you have regarding people who laugh at you and call you the petulant liar that you've demonstrated yourself to be at every opportunity.  That's why you're here.

maybe... maybe not.. I am tasked to simply broadcast the seed. not make it grow. I am here to provide the truth for someone who has fallen through the cracks of religion, so they can make their own decision.

Bad christian, and apparently a shit farmer too.  

which is fine.. I don't care if you think this a lie or not,

Yet another lie.  

but i have shared this many times because

-because you have a compulsion/.  Fixed that or you. You are unwell, buddy, you mistake your being unwell for your being christian, and insist that others consider your specific pathology -as- christianity. You went full harold fucking camping the last time you were here. The world stubbornly refused to end, the miracle cruelly failed to materialize. And so, we begin afresh, forever and ever amen, apparently.

[Drich]

So if it is the ass hole that tells lies then would truth come out of the mouth?

In my experience, shit flows forth from any end of you, about every thing.

if you say so.. but then there's the whole false prophets thing too. might wanna have a little more in your quiver than your word if youre going to lead with your say so.

Yes, indeed.  There's that whole false prophets thing.  Good luck with that.

I've got a pretty good idea what is going to happen to those who do not want to share eternity with us. that is why i'm here. after my experience i vowed to help people like yourself make decisions based on God's truth found in the bible rather than the religious truth corrupting the world.

You've got a pretty good idea about a fetish you have regarding people who laugh at you and call you the petulant liar that you've demonstrated yourself to be at every opportunity.  That's why you're here.

maybe... maybe not.. I am tasked to simply broadcast the seed. not make it grow. I am here to provide the truth for someone who has fallen through the cracks of religion, so they can make their own decision.

Bad christian, and apparently a shit farmer too.  

which is fine.. I don't care if you think this a lie or not,

Yet another lie.  

but i have shared this many times because

-because you have a compulsion/.  Fixed that or you.  You are unwell, buddy, you mistake your being unwell for your being christian, and insist that others consider your specific pathology -as- christianity.  You went full harold fucking camping the last time you were here.  The world stubbornly refused to end, the miracle cruelly failed to materialize.  And so, we begin afresh, forever and ever amen, apparently.

So what have i lied about?

health?
roots? born 1/2 korean, not a christian, alkie father with two families?
being diagnoses as learning disabled and being in retard classes from 3rd grade forward? 
not being able to read after graduating hs?
my dog dying?
how God got my attention?
how God has used me? the things he gives to me to manage?
my dad dying?
the business, how a stranger just lent me the money to get started?
the engineering projects? 
How god has communicated in the past?
how he communicates with me still?
my wife's drug problem?
or the fact she is now clean and sober for almost 13 years?

gotta help me out here cause not only have i shared alotta stuff i offered to support anything and everything that i have shared even offered a plane ticket to anyone who wants to come down and check things out and talk to people. While i do not tell people in my life what goes on here, there is little i haven't shared here.

[arewethereyet]

You forgot that talking to angel thing.