Dan Dennett on free will and determinism

[Edwardo Piet]

[youtube]Utai74HjPJE[/youtube]

Interesting clip I think.

Evf

[LukeMC]

Very interesting, but he really seems to be missing something... He's saying that we have evitability in that we can dodge a brick, but if we rewound time and repeated the same encounter 1,000 times, would the outcome be the same? He makes clear that we can avoid things, but doesn't address whether or not we have any choice in avoiding them. Perhaps it is me who is missing something here...

[Tiberius]

Whilst it is quite obvious that quantum mechanics supports the indeterminism, I think the argument betwwen determinism and indeterminism is a silly one. Given that we have no way to replay time, the indeterministic universe looks exactly the same as the deterministic one. Determinism is a socially flawed philosophy though, in that it removes responsibility from your actions (after all, you were going to murder the guy whatever happened right?). It doesn't matter if you think morality evolved, or it was given from God. If you believe in a deterministic universe then morality is ultimately meaningless.

This is why I support indeterminism both scientifically and socially.

[Edwardo Piet]

I don't really know enough (at all) on the subject to know whether the word is indeterministic or deterministic - but it sounds very plausible to me when you mention Quantum Mechanics because - the whole quantum thing is all about a random - undetermined element right? Or have I said something not quite right there since I'm not exactly an expert on the subject!

IF the world was deterministic, hypothetically speaking - I understand that all the bad people HAD to be bad and all the good people HAD to be good.

But if this world - once again, hypothetically speaking - is deterministic even if I have no choice in who I am and neither do others - that would not prevent empathy for me - which is very crucial in morality I believe. I would still feel for people when they suffer and just, well, feel for people generally. As I do now.

Why wouldn't I?

E.G: If, for example, I was determined to do something really really bad - even if I thought and believed that it was determined - I'd really hope I'd still regret it and feel guilty (despite the fact I was capable of doing such a bad thing in the first place) - because even if I couldn't help it, even if I was not to blame - that wouldn't (or shouldn't at least) matter as much as the fact that I did such a bad thing; I should feel more sorry for the victim(s) of a horrible act on my part, than for myself, even if I would also feel sorry for myself for not being able to help it just because, hypothetically speaking, my action(s) was(were) determined.

Evf

[Tiberius]

In a deterministic world, free will is an illusion, and therefore even if you think you have a choice (do I pull the trigger or not?), you really don't. Your choice was predetermined, if you hesitate and change your mind, that was predetermined, and your decision was predetermined. You may feel guilty over killing this person, but that feeling was also predetermined.

And just to clarify, the area of quantum mechanics that supports indeterminism is the calculations that show that certain parts of the quantum world are random and uncaused. Namely that given a known location of a sub-atomic particle, and all the information about it, the best you can do is predict a probability distribution of where it will be next. You will never be able to accurately predict it's next location because it's movement has some randomness in it as well. This is know as the uncertainty principle.

[Edwardo Piet]

In a deterministic world, free will is an illusion, and therefore even if you think you have a choice (do I pull the trigger or not?), you really don't. Your choice was predetermined, if you hesitate and change your mind, that was predetermined, and your decision was predetermined. You may feel guilty over killing this person, but that feeling was also predetermined.

Yes if the future is predetermined it is by definition, just that, - predetermined.

And If you feel empathy that is determined too.

The sad thing is that some people think this implies that if the world is predetermined that their evitability would inevitably be less and they might as well just "give up".

Because the thing is - am I right in thinking that although determinism is incompatible with the conventional meaning of free will as in 'choosing' your thoughts and 'choosing' your beliefs etc, rather than them simply operating mechanically.

Am I right in thinking that although determinism implies no free will in this sense...--

Indeterminism DOESN'T imply HAVING free will in that sense.

If someone is bad because of the beliefs they hold strongly - if that wasn't determined does that imply they chose their beliefs?

Or does it simply mean it could have went another way (because it wasn't determined) but they still can't CHOOSE what belief they will have?

I also do not see how determinism implies any less responsibility than indeterminism - OR how indeterminism implies the conventional understanding of 'free will' (not Dennetts).

Dennett's meaning of evitability I believe is true whether the world is determined or not.

If there is no choice in the matter whether determined OR predetermined - some things are still avoidable and others aren't.

Not in the sense of choice - in the sense that birds can fly using wings - we can't we have to build aeroplanes and the like.

This is not a choice matter - but humans and birds have different evitabilities.

Evitability in the sense that - its easier to dodge something being rolled at you very slowly than to dodge a bullet.

Whether you have any choice in the matter of whether to dodge or not or how you react at all.

And just to clarify, the area of quantum mechanics that supports indeterminism is the calculations that show that certain parts of the quantum world are random and uncaused. Namely that given a known location of a sub-atomic particle, and all the information about it, the best you can do is predict a probability distribution of where it will be next. You will never be able to accurately predict it's next location because it's movement has some randomness in it as well. This is know as the uncertainty principle

I've heard of the uncertainty principle and I suspected that's what it was (or something like that, I know quantum mechanics is very unpredictable basically).

I just didn't know enough about Quantum Mechanics to say that I understood how it supports - or knew that it supports - indeterminism. And I wasn't going to pretend otherwise.

Evf