Russia and Ukraine

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'll take the AbramsX or the KF51 Panther any day.

I'd take the Leo II or M1A2 over the Armata. Both are battle-tested killers.

[The Architect Of Fate]

I'll take the AbramsX or the KF51 Panther any day.

I'd take the Leo II or M1A2 over the Armata. Both are battle-tested killers.

True but i was comparing 6th generation tanks.

[The Grand Nudger]

T14 is supposed to be a support vehicle for T90s. The T90s aren't doing well.

[The Architect Of Fate]

T14 is supposed to be a support vehicle for T90s.  The T90s aren't doing well.

Indeed

[Jackalope]

T14 is supposed to be a support vehicle for T90s.  The T90s aren't doing well.

Par for the course with shit leadership and shit logistics, oh but there I go repeating myself.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'd take the Leo II or M1A2 over the Armata. Both are battle-tested killers.

True but i was comparing 6th generation tanks.

If a 6G tank can't stand up against 5G tanks, is it really 6G?

Point is, the Armata is untested, and bugs will be found. And the ammo stowed under the turret is a weakness we've all seen resulting in moon-shots anyway. I think the T-14 is a paper tiger, much like a lot of Russian hardware. The unmanned turret is okay, I guess, but when that ammo cooks off the crew compartment is still going to be found twenty or thirty yards away anyhow. Hope those guys are buckled in.

Bubbling in the back of mind as well is the idea that if you're putting thoughts and prayers into Wunderwaffen you're probably well and truly screwed anyway. They've got about 20 Armatas to field right now, and putting them into action right now will make no difference in outcome. It's a desperation move.

[Thumpalumpacus]

T14 is supposed to be a support vehicle for T90s.  The T90s aren't doing well.

Par for the course with shit leadership and shit logistics, oh but there I go repeating myself.

Not only that, but this idea of sending tanks in without grunts ahead and aside is something everyone else learnt was stupid in, oh, about 1940. Most vids we see about Russian tanks killed in Ukraine show no supporting infantry ahead and askirt of the armor, which is stupid tactics.

[The Grand Nudger]

Because the russian infantry is a bunch of kids scared shitless and convicts looking for their first opportunity to run. I doubt their presence has any effect whatsoever - and, fwiw, the vast majority of russian shit blowing up theater isn't mbts, it's ifvs. They're doing even worse than the turret toss champs.

This is an artillery and drone war. Russia is using theirs in so-called active defense to level schools and maternity wards. Ukraine is using theirs as a substitute for air-power so they can engage in combined arms maneuver warfare. Active defense will not work against ca, ca was explicitly designed to defeat it. The types of tanks being used are immaterial to that. That's why ukraine has been doing thunder run shit - not because that's the bold move that russia could never predict - but because it's the textbook way to defeat active defense and even though the russians know that..there's nothing they can do about it. That's why they're digging trenches and trying to bog the whole thing down. Russian forces in a moving fight have 25km or less runway before it's lights out.

When you place it in that context, the lack of adequate supporting boots on the ground may even be rationalizable - I hesitate to say rational, as the rational course of action would be a full retreat, a buildup of forces, and a re-invasion. Or..at least...attacking targets with military value, so that they can trade the russian soldier's apparently worthless life more effectively.

[The Architect Of Fate]

True but i was comparing 6th generation tanks.

If a 6G tank can't stand up against 5G tanks, is it really 6G?

Point is, the Armata is untested, and bugs will be found. And the ammo stowed under the turret is a weakness we've all seen resulting in moon-shots anyway. I think the T-14 is a paper tiger, much like a lot of Russian hardware. The unmanned turret is okay, I guess, but when that ammo cooks off the crew compartment is still going to be found twenty or thirty yards away anyhow. Hope those guys are buckled in.

Bubbling in the back of mind as well is the idea that if you're putting thoughts and prayers into Wunderwaffen you're probably well and truly screwed anyway. They've got about 20 Armatas to field right now, and putting them into action right now will make no difference in outcome. It's a desperation move.

I think 6th generation is more a numerical term than an implication of being necessarily better as there have been a number of instances where a prior generation tank was superior to its replacement for various reasons (resources, politics, lack of talented engineers and designers, corruption etc)

But I agree the Armatas is all bark and no bite and is more suited to parade routes in Red Square than the battlefields of Ukraine.  It is a Wunderwaffen and while maybe not as lame as a wind cannon but it's also not a war winner.

[The Architect Of Fate]

And for those curious 


Introducing Nazi Germany's Windkanone it's essentially a giant air compression gun that created strong winds that were supposed to knock out allied aircraft ....Spoilers it didn't work...