2024 US Presidential Election

[ShinyCrystals]

Lee may have switched gears but at least he didn't claim bone spurs. He actually served the country before becoming someone less than honorable.

Trump has always been a spoiled little, foot-stamping toddler.

Yeah, I should have known that.

Still, I say Trump and Lee are not comparable, mainly for reasons you said, and maybe Thump, too. At least Lee served his country and did some things for it before turning on the USA that he served. Trump has not really done anything for this country, and always cared only about himself.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Lee may have switched gears but at least he didn't claim bone spurs.  He actually served the country before becoming someone less than honorable.

Trump has always been a spoiled little, foot-stamping toddler.

It makes sense Trump likes him. Trump likes him some insurrectionists. That's the subtext of his message above: Just like Lee's insurrection, yours too was noble.

[The Grand Nudger]

I do wonder if he really wanted to defend the United States like he swore to? Doubtful, at least to me.

I don't. He graduated near the top of his West Point class. He served honorably for over three decades, including combat in Mexican-American War. The fact that he resigned his commission in order to fight for the Confederacy speaks to a feeling that the right to own another human being was more important to him than the honorable three decades' of service.

.

Lee was open before during and after the war about how he didn't believe in the cause, or the revolution, or the confederacy - and he opposed confederate monuments in the aftermath even as they were actively mythologizing him.  Directly before the war (but after states began to declare) it does seem like he no longer wanted to fight at all.  Ultimately, at least in his own eyes, his loyalty was to his state over his nation.  He ends up killing a bunch of virginians all the same.

I think the closest lee and trump can be is in how neither of them believed in the offices they occupied, and they both managed to kill a bunch of the people they said they were protecting.

[Jackalope]

He did serve,.and I will grant him that, but his treason ought.to have earned him a long drop with a short rope.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Lee was open before during and after the war about how he didn't believe in the cause, or the revolution, or the confederacy - and he opposed confederate monuments in the aftermath even as they were actively mythologizing him.  Directly before the war (but after states began to declare) it does seem like he no longer wanted to fight at all.  Ultimately, at least in his own eyes, his loyalty was to his state over his nation.  He ends up killing a bunch of virginians all the same.

I think the closest lee and trump can be is in how neither of them believed in the offices they occupied, and they both managed to kill a bunch of the people they said they were protecting.

This is a really thoughtful point, especially the last sentence. That said, I think Lee was a little more thoughtful and complex than der Donald -- though more of a traitor, in my lights. He turned his back on his thirty+ years of service, after all. I respect his misguided sense of honor. But at the end of the day, it was misguided.

[Deesse23]

I think Lees persona and personal situation are too complex to simply brand him as "traitor". I am no expert, but technically he maybe even wasnt, since he returned his commission as  an US officer and thus left the US army after rejecting taking command and before taking command in the confederate army.

Colloquially he may be more clearly be identified as a "traitor" since he turned the back on his country, the oone he was born and raised in and served as an officer for.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I think Lees persona and personal situation are too complex to simply brand him as "traitor". I am no expert, but technically he maybe even wasnt, since he returned his commission as  an US officer and thus left the US army after rejecting taking command and before taking command in the confederate army.

Colloquially he may be more clearly be identified as a "traitor" since he turned the back on his country, the oone he was born and raised in and served as an officer for.

I fail to see the distinction. He was a US citizen and soldier who supported the illegal secession of a large portion of his own nation. He was false to his obligations to the US. He placed his not inconsiderable military skills in the service of his country’s enemy.

 In what way is that not traitorous conduct?

Boru

[Deesse23]

I think Lees persona and personal situation are too complex to simply brand him as "traitor". I am no expert, but technically he maybe even wasnt, since he returned his commission as  an US officer and thus left the US army after rejecting taking command and before taking command in the confederate army.

Colloquially he may be more clearly be identified as a "traitor" since he turned the back on his country, the oone he was born and raised in and served as an officer for.

I fail to see the distinction. He was a US citizen and soldier who supported the illegal secession of a large portion of his own nation. He was false to his obligations to the US. He placed his not inconsiderable military skills in the service of his country’s enemy.

 In what way is that not traitorous conduct?

Boru

Fair point.
Still being a US citizen, one should indeed be considered a traitor if he joins a foreign army, who just declared war on your country. He clearly failed to emigrate before joining CSA 

[arewethereyet]

I guess my point is that Trump has never been on this country's side. He even found a way out of serving at all. He's a coward and a punk.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I fail to see the distinction. He was a US citizen and soldier who supported the illegal secession of a large portion of his own nation. He was false to his obligations to the US. He placed his not inconsiderable military skills in the service of his country’s enemy.

 In what way is that not traitorous conduct?

Boru

Fair point.
Still being a US citizen, one should indeed be considered a traitor if he joins a foreign army, who just declared war on your country. He clearly failed to emigrate before joining CSA 

I don’t see that citizenship is an issue. Suppose Bavaria decided to secede and Breuer accepted an offer to lead the insurrection. Would you consider him a traitor to German, regardless of his official citizenship?

Boru