Bringing Down the King

[reverendjeremiah]

A time traveler from the distant future arrives accidentally in the Middle East during the reign of the Roman Empire around the year 20 (give or take). Knowing the great suffering that christianity will cause the world for the next 2000+ years he decides to find and kill Jesus Christ.

Is it possible for him to be successful?



Several assumptions will have to be made. Discuss.

Well, I would say right off that bat that if Jesus DIDNT exist, and they just made him up, then you would have to kill off WAY more people across a long period of time.

If Jesus existed and he was just a man, then killing him off would not change anything, as they would obviously make shit up about him like they already have.

If Jesus existed and he is exactly how they describe him in that book of contradictions, then you could not kill him or change anything.

So to change something, Jesus would NOT be a god, and you would have to kill many religious leaders, emperors, burn many writtings... it would be more work than what one man could do in his lifetime. You would need a group of people. Not to mention the power vacuum would eventually suck in the next popular religion.

[Cinjin]

Well, I would say right off that bat that if Jesus DIDNT exist, and they just made him up, then you would have to kill off WAY more people across a long period of time.

If Jesus existed and he was just a man, then killing him off would not change anything, as they would obviously make shit up about him like they already have.

If Jesus existed and he is exactly how they describe him in that book of contradictions, then you could not kill him or change anything.

So to change something, Jesus would NOT be a god, and you would have to kill many religious leaders, emperors, burn many writtings... it would be more work than what one man could do in his lifetime. You would need a group of people. Not to mention the power vacuum would eventually suck in the next popular religion.

Now thats a good answer - worthy of a rebuttal.

My only thought is on your second point. It's still possible that killing Jesus off could possibly change the outcome of christianity. If you managed to kill him before he was able to travel abroad and spread his disease than the masses would have never heard his name and thus would not be able to write the stories and the scrolls and what have you.

[Doubting Thomas]

The very real question is that if you managed to kill off Jesus before he established Christianity, would today's Christians still be bigoted, intolerant dickheads?

[Cinjin]

My only thought is on your second point. It's still possible that killing Jesus off could possibly change the outcome of christianity. If you managed to kill him before he was able to travel abroad and spread his disease than the masses would have never heard his name and thus would not be able to write the stories and the scrolls and what have you.

In addition - if you killed Jesus right in front of his first apostle (I think it was Peter if I recall) I think that would definitely put an end to any future "jesus stories". I mean, if you were Peter would you go around telling people about an earthbound deity that managed to get himself killed. I think not.

[reverendjeremiah]

Now thats a good answer - worthy of a rebuttal.

Well, I admittedly just tossed out the first set of options that I could, ignoring so many other problems of just getting there. It isnt exhaustive.

My only thought is on your second point. It's still possible that killing Jesus off could possibly change the outcome of christianity. If you managed to kill him before he was able to travel abroad and spread his disease than the masses would have never heard his name and thus would not be able to write the stories and the scrolls and what have you.

Hmmm, good point. I suppose if I went back and killed David Koresh before he gathered his followers then his followers would not still be worshipping him. Lets also be honest that his followers WANTED to believe in something far fetched. Because of this, there surely would have been a power vaccuum and they would have went to some type of other extreme belief.

I would say that we could set Jesus down and educate him on the real world, so that he could spread good knowledge, but would that change anything? Or would that make him less attractive. I think that "vaccuum" (for lack of a better word) would demand something in place of rational discussion in this situation.

If you are right, and what you say can happen, then I would predict that Zoroastrianism would have made greater strides than it had in our current time line. Then again, it is very difficult to predict anything on this discussion as it is so specialized and lacking in good markers of reality to find a good answer. My prediction would be some other mystery religion would have gained popularity instead, which I would bet Zoroastrianism would have a good chance. Regardless, Christianity as we know it would be destroyed in that situation, but only if you killed Jesus before he became popular, which would mean you would have to kill him in the cradle, if the story of the wise men is actual history..that is.

[Cinjin]

My only thought is on your second point. It's still possible that killing Jesus off could possibly change the outcome of christianity. If you managed to kill him before he was able to travel abroad and spread his disease than the masses would have never heard his name and thus would not be able to write the stories and the scrolls and what have you.

Hmmm, good point. I suppose if I went back and killed David Koresh before he gathered his followers then his followers would not still be worshipping him. Lets also be honest that his followers WANTED to believe in something far fetched. Because of this, there surely would have been a power vaccuum and they would have went to some type of other extreme belief.

I would say that we could set Jesus down and educate him on the real world, so that he could spread good knowledge, but would that change anything? Or would that make him less attractive. I think that "vaccuum" (for lack of a better word) would demand something in place of rational discussion in this situation.

If you are right, and what you say can happen, then I would predict that Zoroastrianism would have made greater strides than it had in our current time line. Then again, it is very difficult to predict anything on this discussion as it is so specialized and lacking in good markers of reality to find a good answer.

Most any hypothetical envolving time travel is going to be inherently lacking in reality due to the nature of paradoxes. Also predicting anything in any context is often very difficult to do. Admittedly, this thread is likely an exercise if futility, but it the meantime, it gives me something far more interesting to discuss. (personal opinion of course) This idea you have of sitting Jesus down and talking to him about the future of the world is very interesting to me. Perhaps he really believed himself to be the son of god and that no matter what you said he would not have listened. Maybe you could use god agaisnt him and say that you were sent by god to warn people like him not to make outragious claims in his name. I wonder what argument Jesus would be most likely to believe and which one would be most likely to help the world overall.

?? curious ??

My prediction would be some other mystery religion would have gained popularity instead, which I would bet Zoroastrianism would have a good chance. Regardless, Christianity as we know it would be destroyed in that situation, but only if you killed Jesus before he became popular, which would mean you would have to kill him in the cradle, if the story of the wise men is actual history..that is.

[Ace Otana]

At what point of his life would you have to kill him to avoid the entire religion taking off??

I'd say before he gains any kind of support. Take him out, and do it out of sight. Make sure he disappears and make it as so he never existed. Tis very hard to kill a martyr, so it's important on how you deal with them. Like Bin Ladin. You shoot him dead in front of many, a martyr he'll become. There are ways to prevent them from becoming a martyr. Take him out quietly, make him...disappear....
Or lock him up till he dies of old age, heck even shoving him in a bag and dumping him into the ocean is good enough.
The Romans made the mistake of executing Jebus in front of all his followers. Big mistake. Should of just slit his throat in the middle of the night and destroy the body.
Thanks to the Romans mistake, now even today millions think he was a god or somink. Stupid Romans! You did it wrong!

[Cinjin]

At what point of his life would you have to kill him to avoid the entire religion taking off??

I'd say before he gains any kind of support. Take him out, and do it out of sight. Make sure he disappears and make it as so he never existed. Tis very hard to kill a martyr, so it's important on how you deal with them. Like Bin Ladin. You shoot him dead in front of many, a martyr he'll become. There are ways to prevent them from becoming a martyr. Take him out quietly, make him...disappear....
Or lock him up till he dies of old age, heck even shoving him in a bag and dumping him into the ocean is good enough.
The Romans made the mistake of executing Jebus in front of all his followers. Big mistake. Should of just slit his throat in the middle of the night and destroy the body.
Thanks to the Romans mistake, now even today millions think he was a god or somink. Stupid Romans! You did it wrong!

RevJer addes to that point by saying the time traveler would have to kill baby jesus in order to guarantee that the disease didn't spread. Perhaps instead of killing innocent babies, the TT could kidnap Jesus and raise him with some proper parenting. Obviously Mary and Joseph really screwed the fuck up since their son grew up with a MASSIVE god complex!

[Ace Otana]

RevJer addes to that point by saying the time traveler would have to kill baby jesus in order to guarantee that the disease didn't spread. Perhaps instead of killing innocent babies, the TT could kidnap Jesus and raise him with some proper parenting. Obviously Mary and Joseph really screwed the fuck up since their son grew up with a MASSIVE god complex!

Hmmm, never thought of that. Kidnap Jebus, raise him properly and allow him to actually use his head.

[DeistPaladin]

If Jesus existed and he is exactly how they describe him in that book of contradictions, then you could not kill him or change anything.

*Tangent Alert*
You just made me think of another problem I had the first time I read the Gospels cover-to-cover.

Herod tries to kill baby Jesus but an angel warns the family to flee to Egypt.

Matthew 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

So why flee? Go ahead, run your sword through him a bunch of times for all the difference it will make. This is freaking God Incarnate here, right? And then what will his soldiers do when Heaven counter-strikes with a team of angels?

I later learned that the author of Matthew was probably an Ebionite, an early sect of Christianity that used a version of his scripture in which Jesus was a mortal man possessed by the spirit of God at the baptism. Thus, Jesus would have been vulnerable prior to his baptism. It also explains neatly why there's no ministry prior to age 30. If Jesus was God, what the hell was he doing all that time? But if Jesus was a mortal, his story just wasn't interesting enough to merit being part of scripture.

This would also explain why Jesus' last words according to Matthew were "My God, why have you forsaken me?" According to the Ebionites, the spirit of God couldn't die so it departed from Jesus while he was on the cross. Jesus' last words according to Matthew make much more sense in this light. From the Trinitarian perspective it sounds like Jesus is saying "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?"

This needs to be a video topic...