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Ok, so I have written up a questionnaire for you all. You do not have to answer each of the questions, but I am interested in knowing what the different opinions of atheists are on these questions. It would be helpful if you explained your answers too, simple “yes” or “no” answers don’t really add much to the discussion. Thanks for filling this out!
P.S. Theists, feel free to answer these questions as well.
1. What evidence would convince you of God’s existence?
2. You see the words, “I love you” written in the sand at the beach. Is this man-made? If so, how do you know?
3. If the God of the Bible were real, would He set the rules or would man set the rules?
4. Do moral laws exist? If so, do they exist independent of humans? How do you know what they are?
5. If everyone on earth believed that rape were morally right, would it still be morally wrong?
6. What is the most dangerous religion on Earth?
7. Where did the laws of logic come from?
8. How did non-rational events and processes lead to a rational human mind?
9. Why do some atheists such as Carl Wieland and Alister McGrath become Christians?
1. What evidence would convince you of God’s existence?-Remarkably, several things. If god himself, or herself were to appear in my living room and say, hey, i'm god, nice to meet you. If any sort of prophecy were specific, like if the bible predicted 9/11 by saying, on the 11th day of september, two large steel birds will crash into buildings in new york, killing three thousand people. Then i'd say, hey, maybe there's something to this. Bad example as it could be orchestrated, but you see my point. If an amputee were to be prayed for right in front of me, and his/her severed limb were to regenerate, that would be evidence of a superior being. If I asked for a purple and yellow rhinoceros that eats squirrels for my birthday, and god came down and gave it to me, that would be evidence. I want evidence that cannot be explained away by sheer mathematical probability or modern medicine. And I want measurable evidence. If 100 stage 4 cancer patients are taken off of their medicine, taken from their hospital rooms, placed in a church, and prayed for, and all 100 patients walk out of that church cancer free, then i'll believe.
2. You see the words, “I love you” written in the sand at the beach. Is this man-made? If so, how do you know? I would assume it's man made, what else could it be? Sea turtles? I don't see god in the unexplainable, that is god of the gaps. If I visit a pyramid, dig beneath it's depths, and find a nintendo wii under the sand, am I to presume that some deity plucked one from the future and buried it there? Or is it more likely that it was placed there intentionally by a man?
3. If the God of the Bible were real, would He set the rules or would man set the rules? If the god of the bible were real, he would set the rules, I don't understand the purpose of this question. Half the fun of being god is setting the rules...then breaking them to annhilate the world except for Noah and his peeps.
4. Do moral laws exist? If so, do they exist independent of humans? How do you know what they are? Yes moral laws exist, So far as we know they do not exist independent of humans. Morality in our understanding is a human invention. More to the point it is a function of civilized humans. We have to follow certain rules to live together. If we begin raping and pillaging, torturing and killing each other at a whim how long would we remain in vast cities containing millions of us? As we have grown over the last couple thousands of years, we have learned to value life. 1000 years ago, the church saw no problem killing heretics and infidels, perceived witches and necromancers. It wasn't a sin to murder these people. But we know better now. Murder is uncivilized. Torture is uncivilized. How can we be a civilized society when we resort to barbarism?
5. If everyone on earth believed that rape were morally right, would it still be morally wrong? Yes, it would be. Just as the host of us once believed that slavery was morally right, it was still very wrong. Your god didn't seem to think so tho. ;-) My wife was a practicing Wiccan for several years, their mantra is "If it harms none, do what you will." That's a pretty good code to live by don't you think? This goes back to question four. Rape and murder have victims, one can use whatever method one likes to dehumanize those victims, but they are still victims nonetheless.
6. What is the most dangerous religion on Earth? That changes rather frequently, don't you think. It really depends on what you mean by dangerous, dangerous to whom or what? Dangerous to our species, Islam, hands down. Dangerous to our futures beyond an act of annhilation? Christianity. Fundamentalist Islam seeks a quick end to nonbelievers, so a muslim extremist could use nuclear weapons, or biological weapons, and kill a large portion of infidels with little guilt, as could fundamentalist christians btw. As far as the future goes, that goes to the world champion of oppression, Christianity. Now I know, we have this puppy dog version these days that begs for money on infomercials and heals fake blind people on television programs. But it exists in our schools, in our government, in our judicial system. You may ask what the problem with that is? If it's okay for a casual christian to be president, what sort of leap is for a fundamentalist christian to be president? What happens when fundie gets elected and decides that homosexuals should be imprisoned? Or that hate crimes against doctors who perform abortions really aren't that bad, or begins bombing random middle eastern countries spreading freedom dust to the non democratic heathens? I view danger on several levels, danger from without from Islam, prolonged danger from within by a religion who ruled the world for 1700 years.
7. Where did the laws of logic come from? From our self awareness. The moment our species became self aware, we became more aware of the world around us, and began trying to work out how things worked. It came from our lack of understanding, and our hunger for it.
8. How did non-rational events and processes lead to a rational human mind? Which are you referring to?
9. Why do some atheists such as Carl Wieland and Alister McGrath become Christians?Why do some christians become atheists? For me personally, anyone who converts back to theism after being an atheism, was never an atheist to begin with. If not, then why wasn't their evidence for re-conversion anymore profound than the average christians? Someone who once said to themselves, I will not believe until the case is made to my standards, to scientific standards, cannot take what passes for evidence by theists as evidence.
10. How do beliefs and thoughts differ? Thoughts are fleeting, beliefs are not. If one sees something in their peripheral vision, your brain immediately begins to work out the shape and identify it. Thoughts spring to mind, when you pick one and go with it, either by observing what was in your peripheral vision or not, that is belief.
11. Do you believe that God does not exist? No I do not believe that any gods exist.
12. Do you think that God does not exist? Interesting choice of words. God isn't something I think about on a regular basis, I function without that thought most of the time. So for me it isn't a matter of thinking, I do not ponder if Santa really exists, if i'm just kidding myself into believing that he doesn't, the same applies for god. I tend to be militant sometimes when it comes to atheism, but it derives from my living in the bible belt and observing relatively sane people practice some archaic drabble and talk about heaven. I do not believe that any gods exist, and by not believing, I place god in the same list of improbable human hallucinations and mythology as werewolves, vampires, chupacabras, the tooth fairy, and perfection.
13. How do you think life began on Earth? Organic chemicals mixing and linking together to become reclipating organisms and then dinosaurs, or something like that. No one knows for certain how life began, anyone who claims to is an idiot. However with what we know so far about biology and chemistry, this fits for how life began in the first place. If in a couple years someone comes along with a better idea, and it makes sense, then perhaps i'll leave the current scientific theories on abiogenesis. I won't however go back to the oldest theories, being the wild claims of cavedwelling shephards about cosmic eggs or deity intercourse, or magically speaking things into existence.
"In our youth, we lacked the maturity, the decency to create gods better than ourselves so that we might have something to aspire to. Instead we are left with a host of deities who were violent, narcissistic, vengeful bullies who reflected our own values. Our gods could have been anything we could imagine, and all we were capable of manifesting were gods who shared the worst of our natures."-Me
"Atheism leaves a man to sense, to philosophy, to natural piety, to laws, to reputation; all of which may be guides to an outward moral virtue, even if religion vanished; but religious superstition dismounts all these and erects an absolute monarchy in the minds of men." – Francis Bacon
(May 10, 2011 at 9:54 pm)SleepingDemon Wrote: 1. What evidence would convince you of God’s existence?-Remarkably, several things. If god himself, or herself were to appear in my living room and say, hey, i'm god, nice to meet you. If any sort of prophecy were specific, like if the bible predicted 9/11 by saying, on the 11th day of september, two large steel birds will crash into buildings in new york, killing three thousand people. Then i'd say, hey, maybe there's something to this. Bad example as it could be orchestrated, but you see my point. If an amputee were to be prayed for right in front of me, and his/her severed limb were to regenerate, that would be evidence of a superior being. If I asked for a purple and yellow rhinoceros that eats squirrels for my birthday, and god came down and gave it to me, that would be evidence. I want evidence that cannot be explained away by sheer mathematical probability or modern medicine. And I want measurable evidence. If 100 stage 4 cancer patients are taken off of their medicine, taken from their hospital rooms, placed in a church, and prayed for, and all 100 patients walk out of that church cancer free, then i'll believe.
2. You see the words, “I love you” written in the sand at the beach. Is this man-made? If so, how do you know? I would assume it's man made, what else could it be? Sea turtles? I don't see god in the unexplainable, that is god of the gaps. If I visit a pyramid, dig beneath it's depths, and find a nintendo wii under the sand, am I to presume that some deity plucked one from the future and buried it there? Or is it more likely that it was placed there intentionally by a man?
3. If the God of the Bible were real, would He set the rules or would man set the rules? If the god of the bible were real, he would set the rules, I don't understand the purpose of this question. Half the fun of being god is setting the rules...then breaking them to annhilate the world except for Noah and his peeps.
4. Do moral laws exist? If so, do they exist independent of humans? How do you know what they are? Yes moral laws exist, So far as we know they do not exist independent of humans. Morality in our understanding is a human invention. More to the point it is a function of civilized humans. We have to follow certain rules to live together. If we begin raping and pillaging, torturing and killing each other at a whim how long would we remain in vast cities containing millions of us? As we have grown over the last couple thousands of years, we have learned to value life. 1000 years ago, the church saw no problem killing heretics and infidels, perceived witches and necromancers. It wasn't a sin to murder these people. But we know better now. Murder is uncivilized. Torture is uncivilized. How can we be a civilized society when we resort to barbarism?
5. If everyone on earth believed that rape were morally right, would it still be morally wrong? Yes, it would be. Just as the host of us once believed that slavery was morally right, it was still very wrong. Your god didn't seem to think so tho. ;-) My wife was a practicing Wiccan for several years, their mantra is "If it harms none, do what you will." That's a pretty good code to live by don't you think? This goes back to question four. Rape and murder have victims, one can use whatever method one likes to dehumanize those victims, but they are still victims nonetheless.
6. What is the most dangerous religion on Earth? That changes rather frequently, don't you think. It really depends on what you mean by dangerous, dangerous to whom or what? Dangerous to our species, Islam, hands down. Dangerous to our futures beyond an act of annhilation? Christianity. Fundamentalist Islam seeks a quick end to nonbelievers, so a muslim extremist could use nuclear weapons, or biological weapons, and kill a large portion of infidels with little guilt, as could fundamentalist christians btw. As far as the future goes, that goes to the world champion of oppression, Christianity. Now I know, we have this puppy dog version these days that begs for money on infomercials and heals fake blind people on television programs. But it exists in our schools, in our government, in our judicial system. You may ask what the problem with that is? If it's okay for a casual christian to be president, what sort of leap is for a fundamentalist christian to be president? What happens when fundie gets elected and decides that homosexuals should be imprisoned? Or that hate crimes against doctors who perform abortions really aren't that bad, or begins bombing random middle eastern countries spreading freedom dust to the non democratic heathens? I view danger on several levels, danger from without from Islam, prolonged danger from within by a religion who ruled the world for 1700 years.
7. Where did the laws of logic come from? From our self awareness. The moment our species became self aware, we became more aware of the world around us, and began trying to work out how things worked. It came from our lack of understanding, and our hunger for it.
8. How did non-rational events and processes lead to a rational human mind? Which are you referring to?
9. Why do some atheists such as Carl Wieland and Alister McGrath become Christians?Why do some christians become atheists? For me personally, anyone who converts back to theism after being an atheism, was never an atheist to begin with. If not, then why wasn't their evidence for re-conversion anymore profound than the average christians? Someone who once said to themselves, I will not believe until the case is made to my standards, to scientific standards, cannot take what passes for evidence by theists as evidence.
10. How do beliefs and thoughts differ? Thoughts are fleeting, beliefs are not. If one sees something in their peripheral vision, your brain immediately begins to work out the shape and identify it. Thoughts spring to mind, when you pick one and go with it, either by observing what was in your peripheral vision or not, that is belief.
11. Do you believe that God does not exist? No I do not believe that any gods exist.
12. Do you think that God does not exist? Interesting choice of words. God isn't something I think about on a regular basis, I function without that thought most of the time. So for me it isn't a matter of thinking, I do not ponder if Santa really exists, if i'm just kidding myself into believing that he doesn't, the same applies for god. I tend to be militant sometimes when it comes to atheism, but it derives from my living in the bible belt and observing relatively sane people practice some archaic drabble and talk about heaven. I do not believe that any gods exist, and by not believing, I place god in the same list of improbable human hallucinations and mythology as werewolves, vampires, chupacabras, the tooth fairy, and perfection.
13. How do you think life began on Earth? Organic chemicals mixing and linking together to become reclipating organisms and then dinosaurs, or something like that. No one knows for certain how life began, anyone who claims to is an idiot. However with what we know so far about biology and chemistry, this fits for how life began in the first place. If in a couple years someone comes along with a better idea, and it makes sense, then perhaps i'll leave the current scientific theories on abiogenesis. I won't however go back to the oldest theories, being the wild claims of cavedwelling shephards about cosmic eggs or deity intercourse, or magically speaking things into existence.
No prob. I know atheists and theist tend to disagree on a lot. You'll find though that atheists do disagree from time to time. These days atheism tends to be built around Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris, but for me personally, my heaviests influences were Carl Sagan and Bertrand Russell. While I enjoy a good discussion, the celebrity that these guys get is kind of funny. I've read their books, and these guys don't really say much that others haven't said for decades now. Everyone is suddenly interested in these crazies who blaspheme against their creator. :rollseyes: Well, for me, as an atheist, theism is less a blight, and more a juvenile notion that we haven't outgrown yet. I grew up Pentecostal, and believe me, questions are frowned upon even moreso than in lighter denominations. I just couldn't believe, couldn't overlook the glaring holes, couldn't accept the dogma. So I searched for something else. It wasn't until I began listening to Sagan that the universe began to make sense again, and it seemed so obvious. It wasn't complete, but I have more answers than questions now. I've never been into philosophy, so existentialism and purpose of life aren't real questions to me. If you were to ask me what the purpose of life is, my answer would always be securing the future of the next generation. Its simple to me. Life has no purpose, nor needs it because life is the purpose. People get so trapped in the why, they never learn the how, and the next generation is stunted for it. I look at religion as an archaic distraction. I believe our civilization should have outgrown it by now. 3000 years ago, when we knew nothing, believing in such things was acceptable, now it seems nostalgic and quaint.
"In our youth, we lacked the maturity, the decency to create gods better than ourselves so that we might have something to aspire to. Instead we are left with a host of deities who were violent, narcissistic, vengeful bullies who reflected our own values. Our gods could have been anything we could imagine, and all we were capable of manifesting were gods who shared the worst of our natures."-Me
"Atheism leaves a man to sense, to philosophy, to natural piety, to laws, to reputation; all of which may be guides to an outward moral virtue, even if religion vanished; but religious superstition dismounts all these and erects an absolute monarchy in the minds of men." – Francis Bacon
May 11, 2011 at 12:53 am (This post was last modified: May 11, 2011 at 12:56 am by Whirling Moat.)
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
Ok, so I have written up a questionnaire for you all. You do not have to answer each of the questions, but I am interested in knowing what the different opinions of atheists are on these questions. It would be helpful if you explained your answers too, simple “yes” or “no” answers don’t really add much to the discussion. Thanks for filling this out!
P.S. Theists, feel free to answer these questions as well.
1. What evidence would convince you of God’s existence?
2. You see the words, “I love you” written in the sand at the beach. Is this man-made? If so, how do you know?
3. If the God of the Bible were real, would He set the rules or would man set the rules?
4. Do moral laws exist? If so, do they exist independent of humans? How do you know what they are?
5. If everyone on earth believed that rape were morally right, would it still be morally wrong?
6. What is the most dangerous religion on Earth?
7. Where did the laws of logic come from?
8. How did non-rational events and processes lead to a rational human mind?
9. Why do some atheists such as Carl Wieland and Alister McGrath become Christians?
10. How do beliefs and thoughts differ?
11. Do you believe that God does not exist?
12. Do you think that God does not exist?
13. How do you think life began on Earth?
1. I am already convinced. man is quickly approaching a point where creating Universes will be the Norm. Humanity is conscious, which means that even form a strictly materialist standpoint, the Universe itself is conscious since we are part of the Universe. If we create a universe, it would be the Universe creating a new universe, and we would have all the proof in the world that the most likely explanation for the creation of a Universe is consciousness. Once again..If this Universe creates a New Universe by the agency of consciousness we would know more about our own creation.
2. You don't know for sure..But to believe otherwise would be unreasonable unless there was evidence to the contrary.
3. He would set the rules, however there would be several Gods since the Biblical Character has several modalities and it could be argued that The Bible wasn't always referring to the same Being. Don't get me wrong, I believe in God, however a literal acceptance of the scriptures is divergent from a path which leads to God.
4. No..Morality is a human construct. Morality is a facet of social order. religion is necessary as a barge for moralty since the unlearned and undeveloped must have an impetus beyond the Will of fellow men to act in accordance to the dictates of social stability. This is necessary as we transition from the darkness of ignorance into the light of knowledge and wisdom. As one ascends, the need for religion as a shell, sheds away and instead of being good in obedience to law, men become Good for Goodness sake.
5. Rape destablizes order... It is wrong.
6. Live and Let live..Liberty unbridled and wild for liberty sake. This is pure destuction.
7. The Creator of the Universe invented reason and set it on its trajectory
8. They didn't, it is quite the opposite...
9. I don't know about them, however for many others it has to do with a deep reverance for the scale and magnificence of creation..From the minute wonders of the Quantum realm to the majesty of the Galaxies swirling above us.. Too much to stand in awe of...and in the face of such appreciation it is comforting to have an avenue to give thanks and demonstrate affection....The Universe is not only Majestic, complex, and bursting with power, it is also delicate and elegant..there has to be a Designer, accidents aren't this beautiful..
10. Beliefs are strings of interconnected thoughts
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 1. What evidence would convince you of God’s existence?
God. I'm sorry I cannot elaborate, but it would really be that simple.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 2. You see the words, “I love you” written in the sand at the beach. Is this man-made? If so, how do you know?
Yes. I know because written language is man made and only used by mankind, at least as it pertains to the Earth.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 3. If the God of the Bible were real, would He set the rules or would man set the rules?
The answer to that would is obvious. If the god of the bible is real, he obviously set forth some rules.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 4. Do moral laws exist? If so, do they exist independent of humans? How do you know what they are?
Yes, moral laws exist, but only insomuch as man has created moral laws which some men force other men to abide by. Some animals, such as dolphins, appear to have morals, but they are not stupid enough to have laws.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 5. If everyone on earth believed that rape were morally right, would it still be morally wrong?
Morals are subjective. I would find it wrong, but I am sure many rapists would disagree with me. So, the answer to your question is no. If everyone thought it was fine, including victims, there would be no victims and therefore, no moral wrongdoing.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 6. What is the most dangerous religion on Earth?
There are no dangerous religions, only dangerous idiots who follow them.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 7. Where did the laws of logic come from?
Philosophers, for the most part. I shy away from the word "law" in this context, however. They are more guidelines and sensical means of coming to a conclusion.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 8. How did non-rational events and processes lead to a rational human mind?
You tell me. You are the one that thinks an omnipotent wizard magicked up the fucking Earth.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 9. Why do some atheists such as Carl Wieland and Alister McGrath become Christians?
Because Christianity is a great crutch. They needed something to lean on, I suppose.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 10. How do beliefs and thoughts differ?
These are not two mutually exclusive things. I belief is a series of thoughts, or a single incorrect thought, in your case.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 11. Do you believe that God does not exist?
This is a leading question and I despise such attempts to lure someone into saying something they don't really mean. Let's just say that I am an atheist and semantics are fucking boring.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 12. Do you think that God does not exist?
See above.
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 13. How do you think life began on Earth?
I'm not entirely sure. To be honest, I am not sure it "began" on Earth. The building blocks for life here most likely came from elsewhere in the universe.
May 11, 2011 at 3:44 am (This post was last modified: May 11, 2011 at 3:45 am by Faith No More.)
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: 1. What evidence would convince you of God’s existence?
Him telling me so would certainly convince me but short of that it would have to be an astonishing miracle that went beyond any doubt of being of any origin other than God. Even seeing miracles performed by humans supposedly in the name of God would be questionable.
Quote:2. You see the words, “I love you” written in the sand at the beach. Is this man-made? If so, how do you know?
Yes, as humans are the only animal with the mental capacity for written language and such an occurrence would not meet the criteria I set out in question #1
Quote:3. If the God of the Bible were real, would He set the rules or would man set the rules?
The God of the Bible definitely appears to set rules for humans to follow. A non-specific God, however, might want humanity to be able to figure that out on their own.
Quote:4. Do moral laws exist? If so, do they exist independent of humans? How do you know what they are?
Moral laws are a human construct and do not seem to appear outside of our social structures. If one was to admit that God desiged everything, nature is definitely indifferent to the feelings of the individual and would have to wonder where morals belonged in his design.
Quote:5. If everyone on earth believed that rape were morally right, would it still be morally wrong?
No, morals are the applications of beliefs.
Quote:6. What is the most dangerous religion on Earth?
Since I am not educated in most religions I can't say specifically but it would be any religion that advocates harm to others. One could argue that just about any religion could be used in such manner
Quote:7. Where did the laws of logic come from?
The human abillity to construct absolute truths beyond what they perceive.
Quote:8. How did non-rational events and processes lead to a rational human mind?
Best guess would be trial and error over the developement of the species.
Quote:9. Why do some atheists such as Carl Wieland and Alister McGrath become Christians?
Can't say exactly but my best guess as to why atheists convert is that they lack something spiritually that they can only fill through religion. Atheists who can maintain spiritual balance without religion have no need for it.
Quote:10. How do beliefs and thoughts differ?
Beliefs are what the individual determines to be true based upon their thoughts.
Quote:11. Do you believe that God does not exist?
No, I have no beliefs on whether a God exists and believe it is a non-issue beyond its social implications.
Quote:12. Do you think that God does not exist?
I think it is beyond the human abillity to determine without 100% empirical evidence.
Quote:13. How do you think life began on Earth?
I think the best theory right now is the building blocks for life arrived on Earth from an asteroid.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
May 11, 2011 at 3:58 am (This post was last modified: May 11, 2011 at 3:59 am by Violet.)
(May 10, 2011 at 7:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Ok, so I have written up a questionnaire for you all. You do not have to answer each of the questions, but I am interested in knowing what the different opinions of atheists are on these questions. It would be helpful if you explained your answers too, simple “yes” or “no” answers don’t really add much to the discussion. Thanks for filling this out!
P.S. Theists, feel free to answer these questions as well.
1. What evidence would convince you of God’s existence?
As everything necessarily exists, how could a thing not?
Quote:2. You see the words, “I love you” written in the sand at the beach. Is this man-made? If so, how do you know?
More likely child made. I know from experience that children and teenagers are far more likely to write 'i love you' in the sand than anyone else. Failing that: a woman probably wrote it.
TL: DR:
No, it isn't man-made
Quote:3. If the God of the Bible were real, would He set the rules or would man set the rules?
He would set the rules and men would set the rules. These are no more mutually exclusive than the country I live in setting rules and me setting rules (that is to say: not at all).
Quote:4. Do moral laws exist? If so, do they exist independent of humans? How do you know what they are?
All things exist, but <insert solipsistic argument here>, so it would be impossible for a subjective being to observe a thing outside of its perspective. As impossible as seeing through the back of your head.
Quote:5. If everyone on earth believed that rape were morally right, would it still be morally wrong?
Question presumes it was morally wrong in the first place. I contest that... I consider it brutal, unnecessary, and cruel. Amoral and wrong though? Only most of them.
Quote:6. What is the most dangerous religion on Earth?
No religion is dangerous. People are dangerous. Religious people just happen to be one form of dangerous people.
Quote:7. Where did the laws of logic come from?
Itself. Seriously: logic is necessarily circular. And based on faith.
Quote:8. How did non-rational events and processes lead to a rational human mind?
This question confuses me. How did I win that poker hand with 3 5s?
Quote:9. Why do some atheists such as Carl Wieland and Alister McGrath become Christians?
Because they didn't have faith in the truth of Christianity at one point and did at a later point?
Quote:10. How do beliefs and thoughts differ?
A belief is necessarily an assertion. A thought is not. All beliefs require thought. Few thoughts require beliefs.
Quote:11. Do you believe that God does not exist?
No. However, I do believe that all deities exist in only the same capacity as my invisible friend Susan (who is also my left ankle).
Quote:12. Do you think that God does not exist?
Yes.
Quote:13. How do you think life began on Earth?
Very carefully, and other babbled nonsense that I infact do not care about.
May 11, 2011 at 5:31 am (This post was last modified: May 11, 2011 at 6:52 am by Eudaimonia.)
(May 11, 2011 at 12:15 am)SleepingDemon Wrote: These days atheism tends to be built around Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris, but for me personally, my heaviests influences were Carl Sagan and Bertrand Russell. While I enjoy a good discussion, the celebrity that these guys get is kind of funny. I've read their books, and these guys don't really say much that others haven't said for decades now. Everyone is suddenly interested in these crazies who blaspheme against their creator. :rollseyes: Well, for me, as an atheist, theism is less a blight, and more a juvenile notion that we haven't outgrown yet. I grew up Pentecostal, and believe me, questions are frowned upon even moreso than in lighter denominations. I just couldn't believe, couldn't overlook the glaring holes, couldn't accept the dogma. So I searched for something else. It wasn't until I began listening to Sagan that the universe began to make sense again, and it seemed so obvious. It wasn't complete, but I have more answers than questions now. I've never been into philosophy, so existentialism and purpose of life aren't real questions to me. If you were to ask me what the purpose of life is, my answer would always be securing the future of the next generation. Its simple to me. Life has no purpose, nor needs it because life is the purpose. People get so trapped in the why, they never learn the how, and the next generation is stunted for it. I look at religion as an archaic distraction. I believe our civilization should have outgrown it by now. 3000 years ago, when we knew nothing, believing in such things was acceptable, now it seems nostalgic and quaint.
I have rarely come across an atheist that was not heavily influenced by the *big three* you mentioned.. I also rarely come across an atheist whose anger is not a driving part of their atheism.. That is why I was struck by your post.. It seemed a more comprehensive contemplation rather than the angry albeit intelligent exercise of ego and *smack down*.. that I'm used to on atheist sites..
Perhaps my exposure is limited? I can admit to this if it is true..
BTW: My influences were Hume, Neil Degrasse Tyson and simply being honest with myself that I did not have it within me to subscribe to dogma as if it were true..
I see religion as a distraught witness to a crime.. The witness is so caught up emotionally in their surroundings that despite their best efforts they create grandiose scenarios to cope with what they don't understand or can't articulate.. So the heroes, villains, victims,l nature, purpose and other various players in life become larger than life tales passed along for their principles but in fact retained for their dogma.... It is a psychological coping mechanism for humans..
The crime scene is life.. with all of its complexity, harshness and beauty..
I'm heavily into philosophy.. Ironically not to find a purpose.. but to hone analysis of the present for the benefit of future generations.. The question of "god" is only relevant to me because the human world is consumed with it.. I very much wish for a time when we can get on with building the best possible human society, our best possible selves - how to realize our potential (however that is to be defined) and understanding as much of the world as possible instead of the distractions of whose "god" is bigger etc..
I absolutely loved your post(s).. (at least on this thread - your other threads may be the complete opposite lol)..
ETA RE: #5 "5. If everyone on earth believed that rape were morally right, would it still be morally wrong?"
According to my moral sensibilities - Yes... According to societal sensibilities - No...
Such a heinous crime renders me unable to imagine myself outside of myself accepting something like rape..
However, I do understand societal influence and how one can be raised to accept victimization if it is deemed "right" by one's elders, peers, community etc..
For instance.. Ancient societies MURDERED children in the name of appeasing their god.. The families saw it as an honor.. No one in that society thought it was "wrong".. There are many instances where sacrificial victims consider it an honor to be so...
If women were reared to think of themselves as the playthings of men.. then I can understand how even a woman could be repeatedly raped by her husband (meaning she is unwilling he takes her anyway) if she thought it was her duty..
BTW Rape happens most often by one's family members.. and is often kept silent by the confusion of the victim misunderstanding that they have the right to feel violated.. In those instances if society also thought this way presumably this practice would be considered "normal"...
