How Do We Behave?

[Emanuel]

While the article is kind of okay, it doesn't really answer my point.
You see, the rules about slavery written in the exodus statement come from god himself. If he didn't like slavery, why makes rules about how to treat slaves, and not just say 'hey, slavery, don't practice that'. I just checked with my own bible - after the basic commandments, there is a whole list of which in the start is made clear that GOD wants the people to obey these rules too.

Let's see. How you thought that God's intention wasn't to establish His Kingdom? That is, He didn't want to make a perfect country. It's something worth considering.

[Napoléon]

While the article is kind of okay, it doesn't really answer my point.
You see, the rules about slavery written in the exodus statement come from god himself. If he didn't like slavery, why makes rules about how to treat slaves, and not just say 'hey, slavery, don't practice that'. I just checked with my own bible - after the basic commandments, there is a whole list of which in the start is made clear that GOD wants the people to obey these rules too.

Let's see. How you thought that God's intention wasn't to establish His Kingdom? That is, He didn't want to make a perfect country. It's something worth considering.

Are you statler in disguise?

[Emanuel]

While the article is kind of okay, it doesn't really answer my point.
You see, the rules about slavery written in the exodus statement come from god himself. If he didn't like slavery, why makes rules about how to treat slaves, and not just say 'hey, slavery, don't practice that'. I just checked with my own bible - after the basic commandments, there is a whole list of which in the start is made clear that GOD wants the people to obey these rules too.

Let's see. How you thought that God's intention wasn't to establish His Kingdom? That is, He didn't want to make a perfect country. It's something worth considering.

Are you statler in disguise?

Who is statler?

[fr0d0]

I thought god wasn't concerned with subjective moral stances?

He isn't. You're right. I think you got this arse about face somewhere?

[Girlysprite]

While the article is kind of okay, it doesn't really answer my point.
You see, the rules about slavery written in the exodus statement come from god himself. If he didn't like slavery, why makes rules about how to treat slaves, and not just say 'hey, slavery, don't practice that'. I just checked with my own bible - after the basic commandments, there is a whole list of which in the start is made clear that GOD wants the people to obey these rules too.

Let's see. How you thought that God's intention wasn't to establish His Kingdom? That is, He didn't want to make a perfect country. It's something worth considering.

So we can conclude again that the rules in the bible are worthless if we want to derive a moral from them. They are rules for bronze-age desert people. Which puts Christians and Atheists at the same starting point if we wonder 'how do we figure out how to behave?' After all, both of us don't have a good 'source', which tells us what to do.

[fr0d0]

Wait what? Fair?

Yes.

Take a look at this excerpt from a lecture given by Gordon Wenham

Another area where the Old Testament law is going beyond the principles accepted in the ancient world relates to slavery. It is noticeable how the slave laws take pride of place in the book of the covenant, ie Exodus 21-23. It is as though Israel’s experience of Egyptian slavery has made her specially concerned about the plight of slaves. The laws express a concern that
slaves be treated as people not things. Provision is made for them to be released from slavery if their owner maltreats them (Exod 21:26-27). Furthermore the law insists that any Hebrew slave must be released after six years (Exod 21:2). Deuteronomy goes even further in encouraging slaves to be treated humanely. On releasing a slave after the maximum six years’ service the owner was told to ‘furnish him liberally out of your flock, out of your threshing floor, and out of your wine press’ (Deut 15:14). In other words the slave must be given a golden handshake when he leaves. Thus although the law accepts the age-old institution of slavery, the Bible tries to humanize it and encourages their release.
If we still feel uncomfortable with the way the Bible condones slavery, it may be pointed out that it has recently been introduced in Britain and hailed as a great humanitarian innovation.
In ancient Israel, and even to this day in poorer countries of the world, slavery is usually the consequence of debt, debt that had been incurred as a result of personal misfortune or as the result of legal damages awarded after committing an offence. Today we usually send offenders who cannot pay their fines to prison; then they become slaves. Recently, though, in
Britain it has started to dawn on us how degrading and corrupting a punishment imprisonment is, so we have community service orders. People are sentenced to do x days labour for the community instead of going to prison. This is nothing but biblical slavery under a new name.
Perhaps we may look forward to the day when the wisdom of other features of biblical penal policy will also be recognized in modern Britain.

source: http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/vo...wenham.pdf

[Napoléon]

Britain it has started to dawn on us how degrading and corrupting a punishment imprisonment is, so we have community service orders. People are sentenced to do x days labour for the community instead of going to prison. This is nothing but biblical slavery under a new name.

What a load of bullshit.

You cannot compare criminals of today to the slaves of thousands of years ago.

[fr0d0]

Why not Nap? Argument?

[Girlysprite]

Frodo, you are partially incorrect. You focus again on the 'nice' rules for the slaves of Hebrew descent, but forget that there are no such rules for slaves of other origins. It was not that uncommon that kinsmen should be treated nicer, or not enslaved at all. Even in the middle ages the pope decreed that christians should not own other christians - and it had been quite an issue a long while before.

I find one person being owned by other people for the rest of his/her life not fair.

When we look at community serivce, there are several big difference with slavery:

1: Often there is some manner of agreement between the judge and the criminal here, before this punishment is dealt out. If the criminal does not agree to it, he is imprisoned.
2: The criminal is not owned by someone else.
3: The amount of time that should be worked is agreed on beforehand. The person does not have to keep working his whole life.
4: If the criminal has children, his children are not forces to work alongside of him. (while being a slave is inherited)
5: While there is a lot of grey area here, we could say that the criminal deserved it.
6: The criminal is not to be beaten when he perform badly.
7: The criminal can not be sold to another institution or person to work there.
8: The criminal retains his personal rights as a citizen.

enough arguments there?

[Napoléon]

Why not Nap? Argument?

1. Not all slaves were slaves because of crimes, some were born slaves and as such had no inherent choice in the matter. This is wrong, i'm sure you would agree. Many others were slaves because of conquest. If you look at the romans there are numerous occasions in which they captured slaves from their times in europe and africa and these people had no choice on the matter. There are countless other examples of this too, like the european colonists who brought back slaves from africa.

2. Criminals in prisons and doing community service are not treated anything like what slaves were treated like thousands of years ago. I think we all know what kind of things slaves had to endure in human history. Prisons of today are often more cushy than being on the outside, many prisoners actually prefer to be inside, I seriously doubt many of them would be the same if it was a life time of slavery they were offered.

3. Community service isn't exactly like the 'full time job' that a slave has. Community service is purely a punishment for wrongdoing and they don't have to work from dawn till dusk doing the most demeaning tasks humans could possibly do. Sure they have to do some crappy jobs like litter picking but it ain't exactly the same.

4. Slaves are OWNED. Prisoners are still individuals.


If you are seriously trying and compare slavery to community service I think you are off your fucking rocker.


*EDIT*
I think Girlysprite also gave some very good reasons.