The problem with muslims...

[reverendjeremiah]

I wouldn't be so sure of that with the rate which islam is spreading. It's like a virus, just because you're in a different continent doesn't mean it won't get you, it just needs a few people with weak immune systems and it will make its way across the pond don't you worry.

Oh believe me there are enough intolerant people in this country to keep that from happening. Besides, Oklahoma has already passed a law making Sharia law illegal. Never underestimate American intolerance.

Just wondering how you can make Sharia law illegal in America? To do so, you would have to bane prayer, ritual worship of god, beliefs, marriage, and divorce.

..and if we can make Sharia illegal, why not go one more step and make America that much more better by banning Christianity as well.

[twocompulsive]

Like you I too am from Birmingham. I live in Sparkhill which as you know is a Muslim area - or to be more precise an area with a predominant Muslim population. Maybe it is because I have lived here all my life and therefore have no alternative frame of reference. But I am glad that I live here because growing up in this environment has made me more tolerant of other cultures. If I had been raised in an English / Christian neighbourhood I may not necessarily be so accepting of others. No Muslim has ever made me feel unwanted in my home city. I am more than happy to have lived amongst them and will continue to do so for the rest of my life. I am not saying that there are no problems with multiculturalism, but am just offering you my own perspective based on my personal experience.

I'm not doubting the majority of muslims aren't extremist crazed terrorists. The vast majority are just normal people. Their culture though, as I've said countless times, IS divisive. Seen as you have lived there from birth you are probably right and have no other frame of reference, just as I can't imagine living in such a muslim dominated area. Even you though must see the clear difference between the area you live in, and one which is not populated so highly by muslims? Or have you not ventured beyond Sparkhill?

To be honest it is not something that I am consciously aware of. I do not wake up every day wishing I lived somewhere else. If you had been raised alongside others from a differnt culture and happily co-existed with them, then you too would not be aware of it until it was referenced. I live in an area which is predominantly Pakistani, but there are other areas of Birmingham where one nationality is overwhelmingly evident. Handsworth for example is predominantly Jamaican. As humans we have a natural tribalistic tendency to settle amongst those we most identify with. This is universal and not confined to one section of society. But to perceive others as different is rather worrying. This is where ignorance, prejudice, fear and hatred emanate from. I have no problem with anyone living next door to me, long as they are doing me no harm. Funny though how multiculturalism was never a problem back in the days of Empire. Perfectly alright for us to impose ourselves on others, but heaven forbid they do it to us. Not that that makes it right, it doesn't. But we do seem to have a rather selective historical memory pertaining to this.

[Napoléon]

However, in fairness, I think the same can be said for any who consider themselves fundamentalist members of a faith. God first, all else second. Because they accept all they are and all that shall come to pass emanates from being innately bound to the spirit they believe orchestrates their mortal destiny.

Ahh but this is the difference! Moderate muslims are far more 'fundamentalist' than moderate christians, or moderate jews, or moderate budhists etc. The vast majority of muslims have this mindset, whereas the mindset of other faiths is far less 'fundamentalist'.

---

To be honest it is not something that I am consciously aware of. I do not wake up every day wishing I lived somewhere else. If you had been raised alongside others from a differnt culture and happily co-existed with them, then you too would not be aware of it until it was referenced. I live in an area which is predominantly Pakistani, but there are other areas of Birmingham where one nationality is overwhelmingly evident. Handsworth for example is predominantly Jamaican. As humans we have a natural tribalistic tendency to settle amongst those we most identify with.

It's not a question of race but religion, and the rituals and divides which come with it. It just so happens muslims in birmingham are majority pakistani, don't compare areas which are 'jamaican' to areas which are muslim. It's not a fair comparison. I've already said the difference between muslims and the rest of british ethnic/religious groups in the OP so I'd rather not go into that again.

This is universal and not confined to one section of society. But to perceive others as different is rather worrying. This is where ignorance, prejudice, fear and hatred emanate from.

I knew someone would go for this angle eventually. Ohhh I guess I'm racist for pointing out a quite obvious difference between two cultures... Right? That's what you're getting at, unless I'm mistaken. Do I really have to go into why this is a pointlessly ignorant argument?

I have no problem with anyone living next door to me, long as they are doing me no harm.

Good for you. I don't either. The problem is, is that they (muslims) don't live next door to me, they live in their own community (PLOTTING THEIR TERRORIST ATTACKS! ), one which you just happen to be in the middle of.

Funny though how multiculturalism was never a problem back in the days of Empire. Perfectly alright for us to impose ourselves on others, but heaven forbid they do it to us. Not that that makes it right, it doesn't. But we do seem to have a rather selective historical memory pertaining to this.

I really don't see the relevance of this argument if I'm honest. Frodo gave it a go a few posts back.

I wasn't responsible for the 'Empire', so I don't see how it would possibly affect me and my opinion on muslims today. You say 'us' when you talk about the empire, but it wasn't US at all was it? It was people from years ago, who frankly have fuck all to do with my personal views on islam, multi-culturalism and integration. Please, do elaborate on why you think muslims and the british empire are a fair comparison, and indeed why it gives any weight to your argument whatsoever?

[Faith No More]

Just wondering how you can make Sharia law illegal in America? To do so, you would have to bane prayer, ritual worship of god, beliefs, marriage, and divorce.

..and if we can make Sharia illegal, why not go one more step and make America that much more better by banning Christianity as well.

It prohibits anyone from considering Sharia law when rendering a verdict in the courts.

[fr0d0]

Interesting take twocompulsive. What is your own ethnicity?

I lived amongst Asians and never really integrated until I moved up to 6th form (Y12/13). Much later I moved to a predominantly Asian road where none of our neighbours spoke to us. Out one evening the minibus I was driving was attacked by a group of Asians.

One point Napoleon: Christianity is also divisive. I think the difference between Christianity and Islam is the direct support in the Koran for physical action ...I hope Rayaan will take that point up.

[Napoléon]

One point Napoleon: Christianity is also divisive. I think the difference between Christianity and Islam is the direct support in the Koran for physical action ...I hope Rayaan will take that point up.

I don't doubt christianity is also divisive, but not to the extent which islam currently is in the UK.

[twocompulsive]

To be honest it is not something that I am consciously aware of. I do not wake up every day wishing I lived somewhere else. If you had been raised alongside others from a differnt culture and happily co-existed with them, then you too would not be aware of it until it was referenced. I live in an area which is predominantly Pakistani, but there are other areas of Birmingham where one nationality is overwhelmingly evident. Handsworth for example is predominantly Jamaican. As humans we have a natural tribalistic tendency to settle amongst those we most identify with.

It's not a question of race but religion, and the rituals and divides which come with it. It just so happens muslims in birmingham are majority pakistani, don't compare areas which are 'jamaican' to areas which are muslim. It's not a fair comparison. I've already said the difference between muslims and the rest of british ethnic/religious groups in the OP so I'd rather not go into that again.

This is universal and not confined to one section of society. But to perceive others as different is rather worrying. This is where ignorance, prejudice, fear and hatred emanate from.

I knew someone would go for this angle eventually. Oh I guess I'm racist for pointing out a quite obvious difference between two cultures... Right? That's what you're getting at, unless I'm mistaken. Do I really have to go into why this is a pointlessly ignorant argument?

I have no problem with anyone living next door to me, long as they are doing me no harm.

Good for you. I don't either. The problem is, is that they (muslims) don't live next door to me, they live in their own community (PLOTTING THEIR TERRORIST ATTACKS!), one which you just happen to be in the middle of.

Funny though how multiculturalism was never a problem back in the days of Empire. Perfectly alright for us to impose ourselves on others, but heaven forbid they do it to us. Not that that makes it right, it doesn't. But we do seem to have a rather selective historical memory pertaining to this.

I really don't see the relevance of this argument if I'm honest. Frodo gave it a go a few posts back.

I wasn't responsible for the 'Empire', so I don't see how it would possibly affect me and my opinion on muslims today. You say 'us' when you talk about the empire, but it wasn't US at all was it? It was people from years ago, who frankly have fuck all to do with my personal views on islam, multi-culturalism and integration. Please, do elaborate on why you think muslims and the british empire are a fair comparison, and indeed why it gives any weight to your argument whatsoever?

Good points. Well argued.

You are correct to emphasise the difference between race and religion.

Do I think you are a racist for critising Islam ? I would be a hypocrite if I did. I will call out any practice which I believe is wrong irrespective of wherever it emanates from. The genital mutilation of children, suicide bombing and apostasy all are. Period. Some of these are more prevalent elsewhere but that is irrelevant. I am all for accommodation but not where human rights are compromised.

Regarding Empire : I would only state that there are those who wish we still had one. They may be in a minority but nevertheless. And you are absolutely right. I should not reference something that you personally had nothing to do with [ although your avatar / username does implies respect for imperialism nonetheless ! ]

[Judas BentHer]

Ahh but this is the difference! Moderate muslims are far more 'fundamentalist' than moderate christians, or moderate jews, or moderate budhists etc. The vast majority of muslims have this mindset, whereas the mindset of other faiths is far less 'fundamentalist'.

---

To my understanding, Fundamentalism is tantamount to ultra-right wing conservative. And this would apply in both Islam and Christianity.
Therefore, the moderate point of view would be just that. Not in keeping to the fundamentalist tenets and doctrines described as rite and practice, in the Koran. Islam in moderation, as it were.

However, I think it necessary to interject here that these are terms, in reference to "Moderate" and "Fundamentalist" Islam, that are afforded in dialog regarding Islam and Muslims, by non-Muslims. For, to the Muslim, Islam is Islam.

The terms of differentiation, i.e. moderate and fundamentalist (often connoted as extremist or terrorist) Muslim are terms originated by western media so as to pander to political correctness that expects descriptions of violence in the name of Islam be described in a way that does not indict all Muslims as violent.

Ask any Muslim whether they are a moderate or a fundamentalist, and I suspect one would receive an odd look at the very least.

[twocompulsive]

Ahh but this is the difference! Moderate muslims are far more 'fundamentalist' than moderate christians, or moderate jews, or moderate budhists etc. The vast majority of muslims have this mindset, whereas the mindset of other faiths is far less 'fundamentalist'.

---

To my understanding, Fundamentalism is tantamount to ultra-right wing conservative. And this would apply in both Islam and Christianity.
Therefore, the moderate point of view would be just that. Not in keeping to the fundamentalist tenets and doctrines described as rite and practice, in the Koran. Islam in moderation, as it were.

However, I think it necessary to interject here that these are terms, in reference to "Moderate" and "Fundamentalist" Islam, that are afforded in dialog regarding Islam and Muslims, by non-Muslims. For, to the Muslim, Islam is Islam.

The terms of differentiation, i.e. moderate and fundamentalist (often connoted as extremist or terrorist) Muslim are terms originated by western media so as to pander to political correctness that expects descriptions of violence in the name of Islam be described in a way that does not indict all Muslims as violent.

Ask any Muslim whether they are a moderate or a fundamentalist, and I suspect one would receive an odd look at the very least.

How remarkably perceptive. You write with such clarity and subtlety. I look forward to more.

[Epimethean]

Bottom line: Islam blows.

Lower line: Monotheism blows.

Fundament: Religion blows.