The Bible

[Kyuuketsuki]

You are ... at no point at all in this forum have I said that.

You called other Christian churches (ie non Catholic Churches) cults I believe.

Then you believe wrongly.

For the record I consider ALL religions, no matter which hokey god they follow, to be cults and nowhere in this forum (or indeed elsewhere) will I have intentionally said otherwise.

So are you saying that you were fully a Christian in a way that would be acceptable to the wider Christian church then? Even though you equate as Christian some anti Christ and anti Christian acts. I'd find that very hard to believe given your opinions on the subject.

I am saying that all Christian variant cults (including Catholicism) are Christian ... or to put it more simply, Catholics and any other cults that follow any significant part of the claimed teachings of Jesus Christ can be considered Christian.

If you understood Christianity like say thoughtful does, than I could believe it. You display the incredulity of someone who has never considered the subject from the other side. No problem with that per se. Only if you profess knowledge you don't actually have.

IOW Thoughtful simply sates things a little closer to what you believe (possibly because he's relatively recently escaped the cult's clutches) which is just another mild variant on the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Not that I don't believe you were exposed strongly to the Catholic faith, and to a lesser extent Church of England teachings. Of course you lived that. What I'm talking about is real Christianity as experienced by people primarily professing a belief in Christ and not professing membership of a church like that matters diddly squat to anyone's belief.

And that is just another play using the NTS fallacy.

Neither am I criticising those you knew and their beliefs or moral fibre.

I am not claiming you were I am simply highly critical of your claim that they weren't Christian or weren't "real" Christian which from the more objective eyes of an atheist invokes the NTS fallacy.

Kyu

[fr0d0]

You are ... at no point at all in this forum have I said that.

You called other Christian churches (ie non Catholic Churches) cults I believe.

Then you believe wrongly.

For the record I consider ALL religions, no matter which hokey god they follow, to be cults and nowhere in this forum (or indeed elsewhere) will I have intentionally said otherwise.

Fair enough. Thank you for the clarification.

So are you saying that you were fully a Christian in a way that would be acceptable to the wider Christian church then? Even though you equate as Christian some anti Christ and anti Christian acts. I'd find that very hard to believe given your opinions on the subject.

I am saying that all Christian variant cults (including Catholicism) are Christian ... or to put it more simply, Catholics and any other cults that follow any significant part of the claimed teachings of Jesus Christ can be considered Christian.

Did you miss where I said Catholicism is a Christian Church?

If you understood Christianity like say thoughtful does, than I could believe it. You display the incredulity of someone who has never considered the subject from the other side. No problem with that per se. Only if you profess knowledge you don't actually have.

IOW Thoughtful simply sates things a little closer to what you believe (possibly because he's relatively recently escaped the cult's clutches) which is just another mild variant on the No True Scotsman fallacy.

You really stretch the NTS fallacy beyond reason Kyu.

Not that I don't believe you were exposed strongly to the Catholic faith, and to a lesser extent Church of England teachings. Of course you lived that. What I'm talking about is real Christianity as experienced by people primarily professing a belief in Christ and not professing membership of a church like that matters diddly squat to anyone's belief.

And that is just another play using the NTS fallacy.

And that's another dodge.

Neither am I criticising those you knew and their beliefs or moral fibre.

I am not claiming you were I am simply highly critical of your claim that they weren't Christian or weren't "real" Christian which from the more objective eyes of an atheist invokes the NTS fallacy.

It is no where near the NTS fallacy. Your understanding of Christianity is far from accurate, is all I'm saying.

[Kyuuketsuki]

I am saying that all Christian variant cults (including Catholicism) are Christian ... or to put it more simply, Catholics and any other cults that follow any significant part of the claimed teachings of Jesus Christ can be considered Christian.

Did you miss where I said Catholicism is a Christian Church?

So you've dropped all these ideas that Catholics are not Christian like all the rest of the Christians? We can finally (at least with you) but this ridiculous segregationalist concept to bed?

IOW Thoughtful simply sates things a little closer to what you believe (possibly because he's relatively recently escaped the cult's clutches) which is just another mild variant on the No True Scotsman fallacy.

You really stretch the NTS fallacy beyond reason Kyu.

Check the No True Scotsman fallacy thread.

And that is just another play using the NTS fallacy.

And that's another dodge.

In what way was I dodging? Be specific.

I am not claiming you were I am simply highly critical of your claim that they weren't Christian or weren't "real" Christian which from the more objective eyes of an atheist invokes the NTS fallacy.

It is no where near the NTS fallacy. Your understanding of Christianity is far from accurate, is all I'm saying.

And you are wrong to assume or believe that I know so little about your dumb hokey belief system ... 16 years of Catholicism, 22 years of what I thought was agnosticism (including 3 years at an Anglican church) and 13 years of debate with theists of all stripes says otherwise.

Kyu

[fr0d0]

I am saying that all Christian variant cults (including Catholicism) are Christian ... or to put it more simply, Catholics and any other cults that follow any significant part of the claimed teachings of Jesus Christ can be considered Christian.

Did you miss where I said Catholicism is a Christian Church?

So you've dropped all these ideas that Catholics are not Christian like all the rest of the Christians? We can finally (at least with you) but this ridiculous segregationalist concept to bed?

I already had before you started this particular crusade Kyu. Go read the posts.

IOW Thoughtful simply sates things a little closer to what you believe (possibly because he's relatively recently escaped the cult's clutches) which is just another mild variant on the No True Scotsman fallacy.

You really stretch the NTS fallacy beyond reason Kyu.

Check the No True Scotsman fallacy thread.

I did. You unanimously claim that your warped misconception was actually a new No True Scotsman definition. Screw you.. I'm sticking with the official interpretation thanks.

And that is just another play using the NTS fallacy.

And that's another dodge.

In what way was I dodging? Be specific.

Go read the fucking question. I'm not your mum. Go wipe your own ass.

I am not claiming you were I am simply highly critical of your claim that they weren't Christian or weren't "real" Christian which from the more objective eyes of an atheist invokes the NTS fallacy.

It is no where near the NTS fallacy. Your understanding of Christianity is far from accurate, is all I'm saying.

And you are wrong to assume or believe that I know so little about your dumb hokey belief system ... 16 years of Catholicism, 22 years of what I thought was agnosticism (including 3 years at an Anglican church) and 13 years of debate with theists of all stripes says otherwise.

Kyu

Right. So you were 'taken' to Catholic church as a kid and didn't commit at all, ever; then you attended an Anglican church AS AN AGNOSTIC for 3 whole years witout ever committing (ie understanding) again, and then argued with theists for 13 years after that. HOW THE FUCK DOES THAT GIVE YOU ANY CLAIM TO UNDERSTAND IT ALL ALL? (Clue... IT DOESN'T)

[chatpilot]

frodo it seems like you have never been exposed to a true fundamentalist church.I came from a hispanic Pentecostal church and they are very literal in their interpretations of scripture.They believe in faith healing,exorcisms (casting out of demons) with the spoken word as Christ did in the bible.A great part of Pentecostalism is the supernatural aspects of the bible.They truly try to imitate the biblical Christs life when he was on this earthly plane.

Regarding the churches agreeing on the nicene creed most of them do but at the same time when it comes to doctrine their teachings are very different.Some believe in the trinity and some dont,some worship idols and others condemn it.I could go on and on with this but what's the point?I think you get the message.

Frodo you state that you are a christian but I am curious to know of what faith you belong to.What I mean by that is are you a baptist,adventist,pentecostal,catholic?Or do you just simply call yourself christian based on the your own personal beliefs and convictions?

[Kyuuketsuki]

So you've dropped all these ideas that Catholics are not Christian like all the rest of the Christians? We can finally (at least with you) but this ridiculous segregationalist concept to bed?

I already had before you started this particular crusade Kyu. Go read the posts.

Problem with you is you're disingenuously slippery, you say something but mean another, you say something but conveniently forget you said it, you say something but twist its meaning.

Check the No True Scotsman fallacy thread.

I did. You unanimously claim that your warped misconception was actually a new No True Scotsman definition. Screw you.. I'm sticking with the official interpretation thanks.

You still use it whether you admit to doing so ... so screw you too

In what way was I dodging? Be specific.

Go read the fucking question. I'm not your mum. Go wipe your own ass.

In what way was I dodging? Be specific.

And you are wrong to assume or believe that I know so little about your dumb hokey belief system ... 16 years of Catholicism, 22 years of what I thought was agnosticism (including 3 years at an Anglican church) and 13 years of debate with theists of all stripes says otherwise.

Right. So you were 'taken' to Catholic church as a kid and didn't commit at all, ever; then you attended an Anglican church AS AN AGNOSTIC for 3 whole years witout ever committing (ie understanding) again, and then argued with theists for 13 years after that. HOW THE FUCK DOES THAT GIVE YOU ANY CLAIM TO UNDERSTAND IT ALL ALL? (Clue... IT DOESN'T)

And you know I "didn't commit" exactly how? Are you a fucking telepath? But since you've decide to yell so much ...

THE SIMPLE FACT IS THAT MY EXPERIENCE GIVES ME EVERY FUCKING RIGHT TO CLAIM I UNDERSTAND CHRISTIANITY AND THE FACT THAT I THINK IT IS A PILE OF STUPID RELIGIOUS GARBAGE DOES NOT MEAN I AM NOT RIGHT.

So go on, use the No True Scotsman ... again!

Kyu

[fr0d0]

frodo it seems like you have never been exposed to a true fundamentalist church.I came from a hispanic Pentecostal church and they are very literal in their interpretations of scripture.They believe in faith healing,exorcisms (casting out of demons) with the spoken word as Christ did in the bible.A great part of Pentecostalism is the supernatural aspects of the bible.They truly try to imitate the biblical Christs life when he was on this earthly plane.

I have actually been a member of a pentecostal church, a quite strong and lively one. You assume wrongly I think.

Regarding the churches agreeing on the nicene creed most of them do but at the same time when it comes to doctrine their teachings are very different.Some believe in the trinity and some dont,some worship idols and others condemn it.I could go on and on with this but what's the point?I think you get the message.

I beg to disagree, and my perception is drawn from knowledge of actual agreement. Even given those differences you state, plus more, all Christian churches are united on the Nicene Creed.

Frodo you state that you are a christian but I am curious to know of what faith you belong to. What I mean by that is are you a baptist, adventist, pentecostal, catholic? Or do you just simply call yourself christian based on the your own personal beliefs and convictions?

I started out as a Salvationist, joined a pentecostal church and experienced the full range of 'gifts', and am now an independent, though still adhering to the same beliefs, if that helps.

[chatpilot]

Okay frodo thanks for clearing that up regarding your beliefs.Here is the Nicene Creed:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

These are the foundational teachings of the christian church but I think you are misunderstanding me when I tell you that the churches themselves start with this creed and diverge into many other teachings that do not agree with one another.One point of contention is the sabbath most say it's Sunday and others say its Saturday.Baptism is another major issue the Catholics say it's necessary to baptize your child or he will be lost if he perishes in sin while most protestant chuches dont believe in child baptism their logic being that a child does not understand the ceremony and that he is blameless of sin because of his ignorance.Catholics believe in sprinkling the child with holy water during baptism and the protestants believe in submerging the entire person under water.

Another common issue is that of the gifts of the Spirit.Catholics and some other groups dont believe that the gifts of the Spirit are necessary anymore and that they were only given to help establish the church here on Earth.Once that mission was completed there was no need for prophecy,tongues,faith healing etc.Protestants especially believe in the gifts of the Spirit and their use today in the church and the ministry.These are just a few examples I hope you understand what I meant when I said that there are so many churches and sects under the umbrella of Christianity because they cannot agree upon their beliefs.

[fr0d0]

Yeah absolutely all churches diversify after that, but they agree upon the core set of beliefs, and that's the important thing. That overrides any differences they may have over interpretation and it's how all churches under the Christian banner can be and are united.

[chatpilot]

I consider that since the bible is open to so many interpretations and is subject to corruption during translation that it takes away from its validity as the inspired word of God.I am also of the opinion that it is no longer a revelation since a revelation is only a revelation to the person to whom it was revealed,after that it just becomes hearsay.