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RE: Looking for an intelligent, rational discussion re atheism
September 3, 2011 at 10:17 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2011 at 10:19 pm by Minimalist.)
I avoid the word "proof" in favor of "evidence."
Evidence can be compiled and evaluated. Proof implies a condition in which all doubt has been resolved.
In a legal sense, sufficient evidence can be presented in which a person is proven to have committed a crime. However, Appeals courts frequently find that such "proof" is an illusion.
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RE: Looking for an intelligent, rational discussion re atheism
September 3, 2011 at 10:25 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2011 at 10:26 pm by Fred.)
(September 3, 2011 at 10:17 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I avoid the word "proof" in favor of "evidence."
Evidence can be compiled and evaluated. Proof implies a condition in which all doubt has been resolved.
In a legal sense, sufficient evidence can be presented in which a person is proven to have committed a crime. However, Appeals courts frequently find that such "proof" is an illusion.
Ok, so what would constitute evidence then? It's tossed around like a given that there isn't any existence for God, but I still can't get anyone to say what that evidence would be and why.
I'm still waiting for someone to step up with a cogent answer. Care to take a shot at it?
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RE: Looking for an intelligent, rational discussion re atheism
September 3, 2011 at 10:30 pm
My areas of interest are history/archaeology. I'd settle for a single legitimate historical reference from a contemporary to the effect of even a rumor of a dead criminal coming back to life after execution by a Roman magistrate.
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RE: Looking for an intelligent, rational discussion re atheism
September 3, 2011 at 10:30 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2011 at 10:31 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
A cogent answer to what? It would be nigh impossible to have a discussion from the very basic's of biology, up to something recognizable. A similar situation with any field of science obviously. It would be easier if you gave some examples of design. That's what constitutes evidence. If it's absolutely necessary so be it, just pick a point to start. Just saying that it will be tedious.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Looking for an intelligent, rational discussion re atheism
September 3, 2011 at 10:38 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2011 at 10:40 pm by Fred.)
(September 3, 2011 at 10:30 pm)Minimalist Wrote: My areas of interest are history/archaeology. I'd settle for a single legitimate historical reference from a contemporary to the effect of even a rumor of a dead criminal coming back to life after execution by a Roman magistrate.
I guess this is the heart of the problem. It seems to be a given amongst most atheists that no evidence of the existence of God exists, yet there's no clear conception as to what that evidence would be, how it would be determined to be so, what methodology would be used to ascertain whether it was evidence or not, and why that methodology was the right tool for the job in the first place.
This is why I maintain that atheism and materialism are faith based. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but it flies in the face of the commonly accepted idea that atheism is based on reason and logic. The notion gets floated endlessly, but the evidence for it being so seems elusive at best.
(September 3, 2011 at 10:30 pm)Rhythm Wrote: A cogent answer to what? It would be nigh impossible to have a discussion from the very basic's of biology, up to something recognizable. A similar situation with any field of science obviously. It would be easier if you gave some examples of design. That's what constitutes evidence. If it's absolutely necessary so be it, just pick a point to start. Just saying that it will be tedious.
I'm not arguing design. At the moment, all I'm asking for is a simple answer to to a simple question. What constitutes evidence for the existence of God and why.
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RE: Looking for an intelligent, rational discussion re atheism
September 3, 2011 at 10:41 pm
Meanwhile...there is not a single reference from any early first century writer which makes the slightest reference to any 'jesus-like' figure wandering around first century Palestine.
Whereas, with the Old Testament archaeology has shown that the stories told in that book of fairy tales are clearly later inventions.
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RE: Looking for an intelligent, rational discussion re atheism
September 3, 2011 at 10:43 pm
This "Intro" seems like a well established discussion. Sorry I can't contribute atm ... will think about it for you Fred, as I am having a hard time wondering where you are coming from...it IS early Sunday morning here
 from Oz Fred..  to the forums
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RE: Looking for an intelligent, rational discussion re atheism
September 3, 2011 at 10:50 pm
(September 3, 2011 at 10:41 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Meanwhile...there is not a single reference from any early first century writer which makes the slightest reference to any 'jesus-like' figure wandering around first century Palestine.
Whereas, with the Old Testament archaeology has shown that the stories told in that book of fairy tales are clearly later inventions.
Hey, can we keep the bible bit out of this? I'm not coming from there, said so from the jump, and fascinating as it all may be, I'm not interested in that aspect at present. I'm interested in the big picture and the assumptions made as givens.
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RE: Looking for an intelligent, rational discussion re atheism
September 3, 2011 at 10:55 pm
errr...
quick interrupt here Fred...you asked what constitutes "proof" you were given two, written references from contempories and archological evidence. Apart from these so called holy txts there is no evidence
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RE: Looking for an intelligent, rational discussion re atheism
September 3, 2011 at 11:01 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2011 at 11:03 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Well, if we wanted to look for evidence of god, the best place to start from would be the myths and narratives about that god. Which is exactly what we've done, in effect. Parse the claims, study the subject very closely. Pretty much the process of removing lightning from the hand of Zues. If we can't, then we have something to talk about.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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