War

[reverendjeremiah]

I think that we would be just as productive in 'peace time' as we would in war. The pressure that would be in a war scenario would be directed toward a military solution, but even in a peace time scenario there would be competitive war. As in Android competing with Apple, etc. If Apple were to become complacent, they would lose out to Android. (this is not to say that they might not lose anyway.) The fact remains though, that war is productive. The type of war will determine the products.

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Let us say that the Middle East decides not to produce any more oil for export, what will happen then?

Honestly?

It will never happen.

That would be the same as saying: "Let us say that American politicians decide not to accept any more money from corporations, what will happen then?"

Oil is not a renewable resource. There will come a time that there will be extremely limited distribution. If this happens before radically different technologies are available, it would be possible to have a scenario of "We (non specific 'we') want oil and we will take it.".

Please try not to confuse "war" with "competition" on this thread.

The "war" you speak of between apple and Droid will not result in the loss of countless lives.

"war", as far as this thread goes, is armed conflict that results in the loss of lives, among other unsavory human endevors.

[Angrboda]

War is inevitable whether or not it is supported. Cultures that do not support war will eventually be dissolved.

As bad as things seem to be sometimes, they could be much worse and I will defend my way of life.

Army Airborne 82nd Division. 1971-1974

And yet Switzerland has managed to survive all these years.

In 1291, the cantons of Uri, Schwyz, and Unterwalden united to defend the peace upon the death of Emperor Rudolf I of Habsburg. Their union, one nucleus of the Old Swiss Confederacy, is recorded in the Federal Charter, a document probably written after the fact in the early 14th century. At the battles of Morgarten in 1315 and Sempach 1386, the Swiss defeated the Habsburgs, gaining increased autonomy within the Holy Roman Empire.

By 1353, the three original cantons had been joined by the cantons of Glarus and Zug and the city states of Lucerne, Zürich, and Bern, forming the "Old Federation" of eight states that persisted during much of the 15th century. Zürich was expelled from the Confederation from 1440 to 1450 due to a conflict over the territory of Toggenburg (the Old Zürich War). The Confederation's power and wealth increased significantly, with victories over Charles the Bold of Burgundy during the 1470s and the success of Swiss mercenaries.

The traditional listing order of the cantons of Switzerland reflects this state, listing the eight "Old Cantons" first, with the city states preceding the founding cantons, followed by cantons that joined the Confederation after 1481, in historical order.

The Swiss defeated the Swabian League in 1499 and gaining greater collective autonomy within the Holy Roman Empire, including exemption from the Imperial reforms of 1495 and immunity from most Imperial courts. In 1506. Pope Julius II engaged the Swiss Guard, which continues to serve the papacy to the present day. The expansion of the Confederation and the reputation of invincibility acquired during the earlier wars suffered a first setback in 1515 with the Swiss defeat in the Battle of Marignano.

— Wikpedia: History Of Switzerland

During the Thirty Years' War, Switzerland was a relative "oasis of peace and prosperity" (Grimmelshausen) in war-torn Europe, mostly because all major powers in Europe depended on Swiss mercenaries, and would not let Switzerland fall in the hands of one of their rivals. Politically, they all tried to take influence, by way of mercenary commanders such as Jörg Jenatsch or Johann Rudolf Wettstein. The Drei Bünde of Grisons, at that point not yet a member of the Confederacy, were involved in the war from 1620, which led to their loss of the Valtellina in 1623.

— ibid.

During the French Revolutionary Wars, French armies enveloped Switzerland during their battles against Austria. In 1798 Switzerland was completely overrun by the French who turned it into the united Helvetic Republic, effectively abolishing the cantons. Having been imposed by a foreign power, and relying on French troops to survive, the Helvetic Republic was highly unpopular and encountered severe economic and political problems and uprisings. Its new constitution following not Swiss sentiment but the political philosophy of the French Revolution. Swiss resistance constitution reflects a wider European discontent with the French Revolution and conflicting Swiss notions of liberty and freedom.

— ibid.

I'm sorry, what were you saying ?

[Violet]

I don't even need anyone to compete against to 'invent' new costumes... I see no reason scientists would need competition to try new things.

[Angrboda]

What does this have to do with the price of bread?

well, its just one quick list. If you wish for me to pull up more, I will be more than happy to.

what it has with the price of bread is that this country is able to invent and produce and become one of the richest countries in the world WITHOUT forcing itself on other countries.

Overall, three general mobilisations have been declared to ensure the integrity and neutrality of Switzerland. The first one was held on the occasion of the Franco-Prussian War of 1870–71. The second one was decided in response to the outbreak of the First World War in August 1914. The third mobilisation of the army took place on September 1939 in response to the German attack on Poland

Now I don't want to get drawn into this, but I will point out that some of the most important advances in medicine and psychiatry have come about as a result of war (e.g. understanding of PTSD and the ambulance in the American Civil War). Granted that is a special case as war provided more opportunity for fixing broken people by providing more broken ones, but my understanding -- without doing any research -- is that the pace of technological advancement accelerates during times of war, just as other forms of production of use to the war effort accelerate during wartime (we wouldn't have nuclear energy without WWII). This is not to say similar accelerations can't occur at peace (e.g. the American lunar missions), but the incentive to do so in war is greater than that in peacetime.

Now, as to the list of Swiss scientist, I haven't looked at it, but really, who gives a rat's ass? A list of scientists or scientific accomplishments of one or more countries with a peaceful past proves exactly diddly squat.

I have never once said that "war doesnt produce inventions."

My argument, if you have been following, is that war is NOT NEEDED to fuel human invention.

Sure, I agree that war can speed up human invention... but my argument is sternly that war is not needed to fuel human invention.

From your post yesterday:

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POINT: All of this stuff could easily had been invented without war.

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Pleaseth be to me not to be moving the goalposts, Friend-O.

And this is why I didn't want to be drawn into this, despite great love and respect for reverendjeremiah. In general I avoid serious forum discussions because most of it is bullshit arguments and heaping helpings of confirmation bias and other quirks of human reason, and is often peppered with ignorant statements which even superficial research would uncover. And that goes double for the sort of individual — no names mind you — who are frequently seen peppering forums with threads which are little more than pretense for them to get on their hobby horse and ride. Thank you kindly, I choose not to participate. The only reason I excepted this thread from that basic policy is, as I said, I have enormous respect for the rev and am generally predisposed to make time for him that I wouldn't do for someone else. And now that time is over.

Anyway, peace and prosperity to all. Out.

[Autumnlicious]

I don't even need anyone to compete against to 'invent' new costumes... I see no reason scientists would need competition to try new things.

Interesting how making costumes, however beautiful or ugly, is used in the same scope as scientific research, which usually involves pushing the bounds of knowledge...

[reverendjeremiah]

I don't even need anyone to compete against to 'invent' new costumes... I see no reason scientists would need competition to try new things.

Nay... (LOL, I said "nay")... in fact competition cheapens such things. Teamwork in both of these trades will enrich human life and progress human understanding along with social cohesion. Competition between scientists, in my minds eye, will actually put a pause on progress. Why fight each other over social status, petty worthless nationalism and disgustingly disruptive profits when they could come together and share their knowledge with each other for the benefit of all?

What an egotistical monster we people have become through the utility of greed.

[Autumnlicious]

Removing part of a toolkit, just because you feel it "lowers quality", does little good and quite a bit of harm, as there are many dependencies and side-effects that are not fully understood, even now.

[reverendjeremiah]

I have never once said that "war doesnt produce inventions."

My argument, if you have been following, is that war is NOT NEEDED to fuel human invention.

Sure, I agree that war can speed up human invention... but my argument is sternly that war is not needed to fuel human invention.

Then you quote this link:
http://atheistforums.org/thread-9097-pos...#pid196160
Which says:

Sure...I mean, what would humanity ever do if we didnt have land mines or thumb screws?

POINT: All of this stuff could easily had been invented without war.

Its the same bad excuse people give me for Capitalism. They suggest that without a profit motive, nothing would have been accomplished or invented.

Basically they are saying that without war and money, mankind would be a bunch of lazy dipshits.

...and then people wonder why crony capitalism and war is job number one in America and other countries...

what are you trying to say or suggest i said? I have never once suggested that war didnt produce inventions.

could you be more specific why you posted a link to my earlier post?

And this is why I didn't want to be drawn into this, despite great love and respect for reverendjeremiah. In general I avoid serious forum discussions because most of it is bullshit arguments and heaping helpings of confirmation bias and other quirks of human reason, and is often peppered with ignorant statements which even superficial research would uncover. And that goes double for the sort of individual — no names mind you — who are frequently seen peppering forums with threads which are little more than pretense for them to get on their hobby horse and ride. Thank you kindly, I choose not to participate. The only reason I excepted this thread from that basic policy is, as I said, I have enormous respect for the rev and am generally predisposed to make time for him that I wouldn't do for someone else. And now that time is over.

I see.

I appreciate the respect... but you were not clear on why you even posted the link.

Oh, and you dont have to participate in this discussion if you dont want to. Its as easy as not posting in it.

Removing part of a toolkit, just because you feel it "lowers quality", does little good and quite a bit of harm, as there are many dependencies and side-effects that are not fully understood, even now.

Who said the tool should be removed from the toolkit? I didnt. I am suggesting that we quit using the tool and put it back in the tool kit and try another.

[Epimethean]

Rev,. you are the one committing the biggest appeal to illogic here. You have stated that you think war is unnecessary, despite there being utterly compelling evidence to the contrary, and despite Switzerland being about the silliest example of a country that has prospered solely because it maintains a neutral stance. Your error? A fundamental misunderstanding of human nature. You have no problem glibly saying, when the question of the Middle East stopping export of oil, "yeah, that'll never happen," and yet your whole take on this thread has been that war, which has NEVER been absent from man's basic agenda, is unnecessary. Absurdism? OK, but I have to use your own line against you when it comes to war being unnecessary: That'll never happen. It is necessary, because it is us. Remove theft next, and then rape, and while you're at it, all addictions. Good luck with the silliness.

[reverendjeremiah]

Rev,. you are the one committing the biggest appeal to illogic here. You have stated that you think war is unnecessary, despite there being utterly compelling evidence to the contrary, and despite Switzerland being about the silliest example of a country that has prospered solely because it maintains a neutral stance. Your error? A fundamental misunderstanding of human nature. You have no problem glibly saying, when the question of the Middle East stopping export of oil, "yeah, that'll never happen," and yet your whole take on this thread has been that war, which has NEVER been absent from man's basic agenda, is unnecessary. Absurdism? OK, but I have to use your own line against you when it comes to war being unnecessary: That'll never happen. It is necessary, because it is us. Remove theft next, and then rape, and while you're at it, all addictions. Good luck with the silliness.

Then SURELY you are willing to give yourself over to the war machine.. er... I mean "progress machine" in order to keep human progress and science moving forward. Surely, if you TRULY believe what you say, then you would have had a very active military career in which you will willingly go to war, and even support a draft to force people to go to war.

Surely you practice what you preach.

BTW, you did change your stance in just 2 pages from your view to mine, and I made that obviously clear...or was that just a mistake?

P.S. - do you even know what absurdism is?