Why Atheism/Secular Humanism... Part II

[Mystic]

The problem with religious people is this: they assume people will act in immoral ways if not subjected to their particular set of laws because they themselves believe they would act in exactly that manner.

Nah, I don't assume that.

I know that an atheist can have good morals in many greater degrees than a believer of religion and that the vice versa is also true.

Is your view however consistent with Quran. God has promised to be with and paradise for the "good people" (muhsineen). He loves the "good people". Right? But then he states those whom don't believe in Ayatallah (signs of God/guidance of God/revelation of God) will have painful punishment. He also promises disbelievers hell and states he hates them (see Suratal Fatir). The Quran also says "whom is more unjust then whom denies the truth when it comes to him" and other places "whom is more unjust then whom denies Ayatallah..."...and the most repeated thing in Quran is God promising hell for the disbelievers. If disbelievers can be good, then this would be injustice, because God would be punishing good people. Also it would be a contradiction because God says he doesn't love disbelievers but rather hates them in Quran, at the same time stating he loves the doers of good.

On the other hand, believers are promised paradise while unjust (thalimoon) are promised hell. There is verses that talk about believers in paradise without even the clause of them having done some good deeds and I think everyone has done some good deeds, so it seems rather superfluous to state that.

At the end Islamically, you have believers are moral and good people, while disbelievers are unmoral, unjust, and evil people.

This is the position of Quran and even states that they are reduced to the lowest state, and are hence lower then animals.

So I think if you really believe atheists can be good people as can other non-muslims whom believe in their own religions and disbelieve in Islam...then I would suggest re-thinking if Islam is really the right religion for you.

[Faith No More]

Disclaimer: In order to play along you need to take my speculation as fact or close to it. If you're going to call me a moron and say none of these things are going to happen, it will be a waste of all of our time. If you'd like to see why I feel this way, I'll gladly direct you to my sources.

Translation: None of this is provable and is entirely composed of my opinion, so don't bother arguing unless you're going to accept what I say as true. I'm going to demonize a group of people with baseless assertions and you cannot respond by saying my ideas are silly. Please don't challenge me on the fact that I have pulled this argument entirely out of my ass.

[Epimethean]

Where did R-Troll D-Troll get off to?

[The Grand Nudger]

Battery technology isn't quite where it's going to be come the cyborg takeover. He's still plugged into the wall recharging.

[Rayaan]

Is your view however consistent with Quran. God has promised to be with and paradise for the "good people" (muhsineen). He loves the "good people". Right? But then he states those whom don't believe in Ayatallah (signs of God/guidance of God/revelation of God) will have painful punishment. He also promises disbelievers hell and states he hates them (see Suratal Fatir). The Quran also says "whom is more unjust then whom denies the truth when it comes to him" and other places "whom is more unjust then whom denies Ayatallah..."...and the most repeated thing in Quran is God promising hell for the disbelievers. If disbelievers can be good, then this would be injustice, because God would be punishing good people. Also it would be a contradiction because God says he doesn't love disbelievers but rather hates them in Quran, at the same time stating he loves the doers of good.

God does love the "doers of good" (muhsineen), but He loves them as long as their good deeds have a value or a connection to Him, which can exist only through faith (imaan).

In several verses in the Quran, it says that the good deeds of disbelievers are wiped away because they do not believe in God and hence there is no reward for their deeds. Therefore, atheists are not considered as muhsineen according to the Quranic verses because everyone's goodness is judged from a spiritual perspective. Faith is primary and good actions are secondary. So, if faith is not present in the first place, then all the good deeds will be nullified.

"Those who disbelieve and avert (men) from the way of Allah, He will render their actions fruitless." [47:1]

"And We will regard what they have done of deeds and make them as dust dispersed." [25:23]

"But those who disbelieved - their deeds are like a mirage in a lowland which a thirsty one thinks is water until, when he comes to it, he finds it is nothing but finds Allah before Him, and He will pay him in full his due; and Allah is swift in account." [24:39]

I do believe that atheists can be good at heart, by their actions and morality, but just not spiritual-wise.

Also, here's a good overview:
The Quran, the Believers and the Non-Believers (by Ahmad Shafaat)

[The Grand Nudger]

If by whiskey.

[Heather]

I still don't get how the religious fanatics continue to come here and post how Atheists are immoral when there have been countless studies showing that religion leads to MORE crime/violence. So, why do people ignore those studies??? What am I missing? (I know I still have a lot to learn).


"In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies."

"Higher rates of non-theism and acceptance of human evolution usually correlate with lower rates of dysfunction, and the least theistic nations are usually the least dysfunctional."


http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

[DeistPaladin]

Where did R-Troll D-Troll get off to?

We haven't heard from him since I told him to stop acting like a cry baby or find another forum.

I guess we know which of those two options he selected.

[thesummerqueen]

I still don't get how the religious fanatics continue to come here and post how Atheists are immoral when there have been countless studies showing that religion leads to MORE crime/violence. So, why do people ignore those studies??? What am I missing? (I know I still have a lot to learn).

Do not underestimate the power of MASSIVE cognitive dissonance.

[Welsh cake]

In several verses in the Quran, it says that the good deeds of disbelievers are wiped away because they do not believe in God

Irrelevant. We do good deeds because they are good, not because some deity told us to.

and hence there is no reward for their deeds.

We do good things because they are good, not because some deity stores up treasures and promises riches after death. If I help you Rayaan I expect no reward. Death is my end regardless of how I lived my life, BUT I know I'm accountable to at least seven billion other people while I'm alive. I'm not expecting any praise, gratitude or immediate payment. I'm propagating a mean that if we're going to live together in a cooperative society it benefits all of us if we live together as harmoniously as possible.

Therefore, atheists are not considered as muhsineen according to the Quranic verses because everyone's goodness is judged from a spiritual perspective.

Don't care, I don't judge people by those asinine standards, and what does "spiritual" mean anyway?

Faith is primary and good actions are secondary. So, if faith is not present in the first place, then all the good deeds will be nullified.

So if I save you from a burning building without faith it wasn't a good deed. Are you fucking serious? ^^ You can't be. I bet you typed that statement with a massive grin on your face.

I do believe that atheists can be good at heart, by their actions and morality, but just not spiritual-wise.

Then that's all that really matters, since spirituality is a meaningless word.