Why do Atheists defend Islam?

[abaris]

CapnAwesome has a history degree, yet you're talking to him like he has no idea what he's talking about.

Yeah, I have one too. So, come again, if you please.

[Catholic_Lady]

CapnAwesome has a history degree, yet you're talking to him like he has no idea what he's talking about.

Yeah, I have one too. So, come again, if you please.

Then perhaps it's just a matter of disagreement. Saying "I urge you to learn some history" just seems silly to say to someone who has a degree in it.

[abaris]

Then perhaps it's just a matter of disagreement. Saying "I urge you to learn some history" just seems silly to say to someone who has a degree in it.

Because the conflict between Islam and Christianity in the Middle Ages was one of my majors. And it certainly isn't as simplistic as oh, they were motivated by religion. None of them was. And that's a huge consensus.

I won't break it down here, since there's a multitude of good books and reading material on the matter. Religion, on both sides, was used to motivate the masses with celestial promises. It wasn't the driving force for the ruling class.

[Minimalist]

There was never meant to be a separation of Church and State in Islam and in the early days there certainly wasn't.

There was never meant to be a separation of church and state in xtiandom, either. 

It was just one big circle jerk.

In all ages hypocrites, called priests, have put crowns on the heads of thieves, called kings.
-- Robert Green Ingersoll

In case you forgot, they fought tooth and nail to keep it that way and lost.

[Catholic_Lady]

Let me make something perfectly clear, because I think my actual stance on this is getting lost in the debate. 

I don't have anything against Muslim people. I don't think good, peaceful Muslims should stop being Muslim. I do think the Islam ideology, as it stands right now, has one major issue - and that is that it can be easily taken in a way that gets many people do many heinous things. It needs some sort of reform. And for those of you who immediately say "well Christianity blah blah blah," yes, I get it. Christians have killed many people too, in the past. Trust me, if Christians were running around right now killing thousands of people in the name of Jesus like the Islamic Jihadists are doing in the name of their god, I would be condemning the hell out of their behavior and saying the same thing I'm saying about Islam - that we need a reform and that this needs to stop. Like I said, I have nothing against good Muslim people practicing their faith peacefully. But I hold them to the same standard that I would hold my own Christian faith to and that I hold myself to: condemn every attack in the name of your faith.             

Seriously, I have no idea why the stance that...

1. islam needs a reform so that we don't have millions of its followers believing they need to commit heinous acts, and 

2. people should openly condemn/denounce horrible things being done in the name of their ideology (Christians and Muslims alike),   

...Is being met with so much hostility. Heaven forbid I think an ideology that is killing so many needs a reform. Heaven forbid I think we need to openly denounce murder being done in our name.

[CapnAwesome]

I don't know how you think it can be mainly political in nature and yet separate from Islam. Islam (Not all of them!) is a political system as well as a religion. There was never meant to be a separation of Church and State in Islam and in the early days there certainly wasn't. You guys always talk about it like Muslims (Not all of them!) just happen to come from these conflict areas and that Islam itself has nothing to do with it. That's just plain wrong. While some Muslim countries have separation of church and state, Islam has influenced the politics and culture of these areas for hundreds of years. It's not like they grew up somehow separate from one another and Islam and Muslims (Not all of them!) are just unforunate to have shitty cultures/economies/etc. Islam is essential to all of that and to act as though it isn't is pretty mind boggling.

So riddle me this. Do you think the 30 years war was purely religious in nature? Do you think the crusades were?

That's why I urge you to learn some history. It's multifacetted and there are many aspects you obviously fail to understand. That's why some of you always come over as ugha, ugha, Islam bad, muslim bad.

I for one would never make the claim that any of the so called religious wars, christian or muslim, was purely motivated by religion. Christians were butthurt when Mehmed II conquered Constantinople, but Mehmed's motivations weren't religious in nature. He just wanted a strategic point for his growing empire. Same goes for the later Osmanic inavsions of Southeastern and Eastern Europe. Religion was used as tool to gather as many troops as possible, but to take the example of the Osman empire, the actual rule was pragmatic and not in any way compareable to what ISIL stands for. Christians as well as jews could rise to high ranks in the administration.

Same goes for the old Islamic realms, who waged wars against each other, rather than turning towards the West, which, for a long time didn't hold any appeal for them. Other than the gothic territories in Northern Africa, since they held rich farmland as well as other valuable resources.

The list could go on, but let's leave it at that. Suffice to say that not even Urban IIs call to the first crusade was an entirely religious endeavor. It was a spontaneous call to arms after he had travelled to Clermond Ferrand and had witnessed Europe falling into a deep state of unrest, with christian dominions waging war against each other. He saw the call for a crusade as a uniting factor to remove some pressure from the kettle.

As I said, get some history lessons and look a little bit deeper than the paint on the surface.

It doesn't have to be 'purely' religious in nature to have the religion be an important component. Also the fact that you think my argument (which you didn't even respond to) boils down to 'muslims bad' maybe shows that you are only capable of analyzing things from one point of view. Listing a bunch of historical events (all of which I'm aware of) and ignoring peoples points doesn't make you somehow more knowledgeable on the subject, it just makes you look like a pseudo-intellectual douche. I don't know why I even bother because it's always the same with you.

[Minimalist]

I do think the Islam ideology, as it stands right now, has one major issue - and that is that it can be easily taken in a way that gets many people do many heinous things.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/this-...y/1.594057

On May 27, 1096, a Crusader army led by Count Emicho of Flonheim entered the walled Rhineland city of Mainz, hunting down and killing Jews.

The Mainz massacre, in which an estimated 600 Jews were murdered (although some reports put the number at over 1,000), was one of a number of attacks on Germany’s Jews by bands of armed peasants from France and Germany, at the start of what came to be known as the First Crusade.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/this-...y/1.594057

Onward, Christian soldiers! Marching as to war,. With the cross of Jesus. Going on before.

But before the war we can massacre some civilians.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

[Catholic_Lady]

I do think the Islam ideology, as it stands right now, has one major issue - and that is that it can be easily taken in a way that gets many people do many heinous things.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/this-...y/1.594057

On May 27, 1096, a Crusader army led by Count Emicho of Flonheim entered the walled Rhineland city of Mainz, hunting down and killing Jews.

The Mainz massacre, in which an estimated 600 Jews were murdered (although some reports put the number at over 1,000), was one of a number of attacks on Germany’s Jews by bands of armed peasants from France and Germany, at the start of what came to be known as the First Crusade.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/this-...y/1.594057

Wow, came quicker than I thought but at least I already wrote a response to it, so here it is again:

 

I do think the Islam ideology, as it stands right now, has one major issue - and that is that it can be easily taken in a way that gets many people do many heinous things. It needs some sort of reform. And for those of you who immediately say "well Christianity blah blah blah," yes, I get it. Christians have killed many people too, in the past. Trust me, if Christians were running around right now killing thousands of people in the name of Jesus like the Islamic Jihadists are doing in the name of their god, I would be condemning the hell out of their behavior and saying the same thing I'm saying about Islam - that we need a reform and that this needs to stop. Like I said, I have nothing against good Muslim people practicing their faith peacefully. But I hold them to the same standard that I would hold my own Christian faith to and that I hold myself to: condemn every attack in the name of your faith.     

[abaris]

I do[color=#333333] think the Islam ideology, as it stands right now, has one major issue - and that is that it can be easily taken in a way that gets many people do many heinous things.

You are aware, how many shades and colors Islam actually has? There is no islamic ideology, there are only more or less literal interpretations being at odds with each other. Right now, most of the more violent movements are Sunni, but that doesn't mean that Sunni is inherently more violent. Sunni, again, breaks down into many aspects, depending on region and culture.

That's the problem with blankets. They just don't fit.

[abaris]

it just makes you look like a pseudo-intellectual douche. I don't know why I even bother because it's always the same with you.

Yeah, and I gladly return the compliment on this issue.