Natural Order and Science

[I_am_not_mafia]

This is completely irrelevant, you are also equivocating with the word 'irreducible'. Take away banks and the economy collapses, that doesn't mean to say that the economy was created in a single instance. The role of banks grew as economies and societies developed over time.

Do you know the BEAST by the name BARTER?

Do you know the BEAST by the name of Fractional Reserve Banking?

[I_am_not_mafia]

Joseph Stalin (atheist) killed 42,672,000 people
Mao Zedong (atheist) killed 37,828,000 people
Adolf Hitler (atheist) killed  20,946,000 people
Chiang Kaikillshek (atheist) killed 10,214,000 people
Vladimir Lenin (atheist) killed 4,017,000 people
Hideki Tojo (atheist) killed 3,990,000 people
Pol Pot killed (atheist) 2,397,0003 people

Those people did not individually kill all those people. They were part of a larger system that they had taken control of. The majority of which were theists. But this is still all beside the point. You still have not demonstrated the following:

Those insane butchers had used most modern and sophisticated scientific technologies of the time in a precise and systematic manner to slaughter everyone who believed in the existence of God.

What evidence do you have that those people were exterminated because they believed in the existence of God?

If you disagree that Adolf Hitler was an atheist, then you should refer to the article “Religious views of Adolf Hitler” at Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_...olf_Hitler

Couple of excerpts from the same article:

“According to Alan Bullock, Hitler was a rationalist and materialist "who believed neither in God nor in conscience."

“His anti-Christian world view is evidenced in sources such as the Goebbels Diaries, the memoirs of Albert Speer, and the transcripts edited by Martin Bormann in Hitler's Table Talk. The historian Evans wrote that HITLER REPEATEDLY CALLED NAZISM A SECULAR IDEOLOGY FOUNDED ON SCIENCE, WHICH IN THE LONG RUN COULD NOT CO-EXIST WITH RELIGION.”

From the same link which you deliberately missed out which is a demonstration of your intellectual dishonesty ...

The religious views of Adolf Hitler are a matter of debate.

Nonetheless, Hitler opportunistically employed the language of "divine providence" in defence of his own myth.[2] When young, Hitler was baptised and confirmed in the Roman Catholic Church and raised by an anti-clerical father and practising Catholic mother.

Hitler had fully discarded belief in the Judeo-Christian conception of God by 1937, but continued to use the word "God" in speeches.[11] In Mein Kampf (1925/6), Hitler refers to an "Almighty Creator" and "Providence"

So he may not have liked Christianity but that does not mean to say that he wasn't a theist.

[I_am_not_mafia]

What point is he making again?

I've noticed that when you argue against a point he has made, he will only quote your response and give evidence for something else, ignoring the original point he made which was incorrect.

[Angrboda]

2. Quran does not have:

a.   Historical errors

The Virgin Mary

In many places, the Qur'an mentions Mary as the sister of Moses and Aaron and the daughter of Imran. The Qur'an has confused Jesus' mother with Aaron's sister because both of them carry the same name, though there are several centuries between them. The Qur'an indicates that Mary (Christ's mother) had a brother whose name was Aaron (chapter 19:28) and a father whose name is Imran (chapter 66:12). Their mother was called "the wife of Imran" (chapter 3:35) which eliminates any doubt that it confuses Mary, mother of Jesus, with Mary, sister of Aaron.

Historical Errors of the Qur'an

2. Quran does not have:

b.   Scientific errors

Moon Emits Light

The moon does not emit its own light but simply reflects light coming from the Sun. The Arabic word for reflected (in`ikaas) does not appear in this Qur'anic verse that says the Moon is a "light". It instead uses the word "Noor" which is used to denote an entity that emits light.

"And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?"
Qur'an 71:16

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Er..._the_Quran

2. Quran does not have:

c.   Mathematical errors

Surah 4 of the Quran, which supposedly contains God's mathematics on dividing inheritance, is rife with errors. These erroneous mathematics in Quran are small enough to pass perfunctory inspection but significant in exposing the Quran's ungodly authorship.

http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/math...quran.html

2. Quran does not have:

d.   Contradictory texts

Too numerous to quote.  http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/#internal

2. Quran does not have:

e.   Discrepancies &

Comparing the stories of Noah in the Bible and the Qur'an, one comes across these statements:

   "After the flood Noah lived 350 years. Altogether, Noah lived 950 years, and then he died." Genesis 9:28-29

   "Indeed, We sent Noah to his people, and he tarried among them a thousand years, all but fifty; so the Flood seized them, while they were evildoers." S. 29:14 Arberry

Obviously, Muhammad had heard of Noah's age of 950 years, but he either did not correctly understand it or his memory failed him when he included this information in the Qur'an. He apparently thought that it was Noah's age at the time of the flood.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/#bible

2. Quran does not have:

f.    Evidences that may confirm human writings

[Whateverist]

I sure can't get excited to argue that the Koran is incorrect in any of the ways Harris says it is flawless. He is obviously wrong. I'd as soon argue with a child that Sponge Bob isn't a real creature.

[robvalue]

How's this:

Allah either caused or allowed every death that has ever happened.

[Angrboda]

I sure can't get excited to argue that the Koran is incorrect in any of the ways Harris says it is flawless.  He is obviously wrong.  I'd as soon argue with a child that Sponge Bob isn't a real creature.

Muslims repeat this mantra as if they believe that by repeating it enough times, it will become true. They must be reminded that the truth will out, no matter how many times they lie about it.

[little_monkey]

Thank you for your frank description of your position. 

However you are still in the position that your theory does not have an inbuilt mechanism for self-correction. To that, you answer that your theory is devoid of error and so it is not in need of this inbuilt mechanism for self-correction. By insulating your theory, it can never be corrected. And therefore you have to believe the Quran as it is literally written, no interpretation is allowed.  I'm not going to debate all the verses of the Quran but just a few on women:

Quran (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse ). 
 - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women." 

A man's worth should be valued twice as highly as a woman's.


Quran (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"
Quran (24:31) - Women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye.



This reaffirms that a man is to be the superior of a woman.



You can see that such declaration goes counter to what is believed in the West: that men and women are equal, and should be treated as such in a court of law, in inheritance and in every social occasion. Your Quran states otherwise.  The danger that the belief the Quran is inerrant, is that Islam and the West will be in a perpetual war.

I was not expecting from you a cherry picking. That is bizarre. It seems you have picked up the first argument against Islam from the first propaganda website that you have encountered and thrown it right on my face without any bother of doing research.

These type of arguments are typically used by haters of Islam which they use to suppress evidence to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant data that may contradict their position. This act of yours is also proving a firm evidence about your total lack of knowledge about Quran and Islam in general. This shows that you are totally dependent over the crooks whose job is to distort the truth by misrepresenting and quoting out of context Quranic verses.

Anyway, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to expose this truth.

Background of Islamic Inheritance Law:
In nature physical body of man is superior than that of woman’s. In general, man can resist more physical exertion over his body compared to woman. If man and woman were equal in all respects as most secularists are depicting, then no wonder there were boxing matches between man and woman. If man and woman are not equal in sports events that is an enough evidence that man and woman are not equal. Both have certain natural limitations.

If man, try to behave like woman or woman try to behave like man that is unnatural. Both have their natural boundaries and both should respect those boundaries by not crossing them.

By nature, earning is a hard process. For example, although, woman can be an outstanding cook but cooking for family members or cooking for occasional parties is an entirely different activity than cooking for hundreds or maybe thousands of people every day in restaurant, hotels, hospitals, airline catering and so on. Therefore, all around the world in all big restaurants and catering companies almost all chiefs are males.

In Islam earning and fulfilling material needs of family members is the obligation of man. Man is responsible for looking after his wife, daughter if not married, sister if not married, his old parents, his mother if she is without husband or old. Even man is responsible to look after his aunties, nephews and grandparents.

On the other hand, according to Islamic laws woman is not obliged to contribute her money in fulfilling the material needs of family members even if she is a working woman. She can spend her money that she earned or got in inheritance however she wants, but a man is obliged to spend his earnings, savings and inheritance on his children and female family members.

By Islamic laws from the day a girl is born to the day she passes away in old age, she is not responsible to earn her own living. From birth to her marriage, her father or guardian is responsible to look after her material needs.  After marriage, her husband is responsible for that.  When she gets old, her children are responsible to look after her. If she is not married and have no father, then her brother is responsible to take care of her and if she is all alone then Islamic state is responsible to take care of her.

This is the foundation of inheritance law in Islam:

Here is the complete verse the incomplete part of which you have quoted to twist the reality:

“Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah. and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.”

An Nisaa (4)
-Verse 11-

Before I go further let me clarify one more thing.

If parents who have two children one son and one daughter and they decide to give all their wealth to their daughter and left their son without anything it is perfectly permissible.

If they decide to give all their wealth to their son and left their daughter without anything, then that is perfectly permissible.

If they decide to divide their wealth in equal or in different proportions among their children, then it is perfectly permissible

If they decide not to give their wealth to any of their children and give their wealth in charity that is again perfectly permissible.

Law of inheritance is applicable if someone left his/her wealth without giving any instructions on how to distribute it among his/her close ones. However, majority of Muslims follow the law of inheritance when they write their wills in their lives.

Demanding an equal share of inheritance for both male and female Muslims, who do not have equal financial obligations and responsibilities, is an unfair and unjust demand. It is only fair and just to give preference to a male heir, in light of his financial responsibilities, over the female heir from the inheritance of the father, mother or others. Considering all this, the fact that a female is still entitled by the Islamic law to a half share of the portion of inheritance received by the male, and sometimes an equal share, is indeed fair, just, and generous.

In this response I have only touched the logical aspect of inheritance law. If you are interested in learning all scenario of Islamic inheritance law, then I recommend you to read books about the special branch of Islamic knowledge called "The science of inheritance and division of the estate."

I am not going to touch other two misquoted verses just to avoid lengthy response which is already long. However, on few things I want you to pay attention:

You have not checked Quran while you were copying and pasting Verse 2:228:

Verse 2:228 does not say:

“And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women." A man's worth should be valued twice as highly as a woman's.”


Actual verse is:

“Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”
Al Baqarah (2)
-Verse 228-

You have pasted only small fraction of the verse 24:31 whereas the full verse says:

“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.”

An Nuur (24)
-Verse 31-

Regarding this critique please note that the commandment about lowering the gaze first came for men and then for women.

“Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.”

An Nuur (24)
-Verse 30-

 I was a professor of physics, and I taught for over 25 years. In the beginning I had few female students in my class, but by the time I retired, just a few years ago, more that half of my class were female students. Today there are a number of outstanding female physicists. And you want to go back to a time when women were held back by men who stupidly thought they were superior?! And you believe that your sacred is inerrant?? This conversation is terminated.

[Harris]

Even if it is true what you say about these people, what you have demonstrated is that atheists possibly make worse dictators. While that is an interesting fact to keep in mind, I would like to go on record saying that I don't think dictatorships are a good idea.

That being said, you are of course technically wrong - none of these people killed a great number of victims. The killiing was done by others. In the case of e.g. Hitler, the killing was done by people, mostly formerly good Catholics and Protestants, who fell for a quasi-religion involving a personality cult directed at Adolf Hitler and the aryan race / German people. Why did they fall for it? Maybe because religion had made sure that for centuries, the general populace did not learn to, did not dare to question messianic authority figures - theistic religion paved the way by providing an uncritical following where a culture of critical thinking could have averted the catastrophe.

Well yes! Solder can be anyone (Christian, Muslim, atheist, …) whose job is to obey orders of his superiors. If his superior command him to kill every/any Jew, he will do his job. Therefore, the credit of that killing is not on the head of that solder but goes to the commanding officer. Similarly, credit of such killings also goes to the civilians who support their leaders for those killings.

[Harris]

2. Quran does not have:

a.   Historical errors

The Virgin Mary

In many places, the Qur'an mentions Mary as the sister of Moses and Aaron and the daughter of Imran. The Qur'an has confused Jesus' mother with Aaron's sister because both of them carry the same name, though there are several centuries between them. The Qur'an indicates that Mary (Christ's mother) had a brother whose name was Aaron (chapter 19:28) and a father whose name is Imran (chapter 66:12). Their mother was called "the wife of Imran" (chapter 3:35) which eliminates any doubt that it confuses Mary, mother of Jesus, with Mary, sister of Aaron.

Historical Errors of the Qur'an

2. Quran does not have:

b.   Scientific errors

Moon Emits Light

The moon does not emit its own light but simply reflects light coming from the Sun. The Arabic word for reflected (in`ikaas) does not appear in this Qur'anic verse that says the Moon is a "light". It instead uses the word "Noor" which is used to denote an entity that emits light.

"And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?"
Qur'an 71:16

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Er..._the_Quran

2. Quran does not have:

c.   Mathematical errors

Surah 4 of the Quran, which supposedly contains God's mathematics on dividing inheritance, is rife with errors. These erroneous mathematics in Quran are small enough to pass perfunctory inspection but significant in exposing the Quran's ungodly authorship.

http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/math...quran.html

2. Quran does not have:

d.   Contradictory texts

Too numerous to quote.  http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/#internal

2. Quran does not have:

e.   Discrepancies &

Comparing the stories of Noah in the Bible and the Qur'an, one comes across these statements:

   "After the flood Noah lived 350 years. Altogether, Noah lived 950 years, and then he died." Genesis 9:28-29

   "Indeed, We sent Noah to his people, and he tarried among them a thousand years, all but fifty; so the Flood seized them, while they were evildoers." S. 29:14 Arberry

Obviously, Muhammad had heard of Noah's age of 950 years, but he either did not correctly understand it or his memory failed him when he included this information in the Qur'an. He apparently thought that it was Noah's age at the time of the flood.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/#bible

2. Quran does not have:

f.    Evidences that may confirm human writings

Well well well! Now atheists have started picking arguments of the theists to counter argue a theist. Is not it funny.

The bad news is all what you have written is nothing but CHERRY PICKING. If you do not know what is Cherry Picking then please check post #376.